.

[cybercoma]

Yes the Liberal voter list is a huge secret. When an election comes down the voter list goes to every campaign in the country and is put on every computer the Liberals will use. It is just the easiest way to up date a list if voters move across country etc. Anyone could get it if they walked into an office and started volunteering. ANYONE.

Not to mention, as the second article that I posted in this thread mentioned, the Conservatives have the most advanced voter identification system out of all the parties and all the parties will gather information on who people are voting for even when it's not their parties.

[cybercoma]

Were Martin's comments malicious or based on fact? That's for the lawyers to work out.

Obviously Pat Martin genuinely believes his comments are true, given the evidence that has come out. So it's not defamation.

And this was a serious misstep by Racknine. Sicking their lawyers on MPs makes them look shady as hell. They should have just issued a statement repeating everything they've said: "We were unaware of the calls being made by our system on that day and we're working openly with the authorities to investigate what happened." Threatening lawsuits looks way too defensive. It's like swapping a fly with a sledgehammer.

Edited February 26, 2012 by cybercoma

[cybercoma]

You know, I'm surprised at the Booster Clubs reaction here. I would think that they would be calling for a full investigation as loud as anyone else. Is suspected voter suppression/electoral fraud such a small issue for you all?

I'm with you on this one. The intelligent Right on this forum is just laying low until this pans out. What you're witnessing right now is the vocal trolls of the Right that give the Conservatives a bad name.

[scribblet]

If the opposition had ANY hard evidence that the CPC party was behind this, they would have announced it by now, instead they have tinfoil hat conspiracy theory and speculation. Coverage has pointed out there is no evidence that Mr. Harper's campaign or those of any of the other candidates were involved in the call.

Bob Rae and Pat Martin are foaming at the mouth over this with the media feeding off them, but note that Pat Martin has already been served with a cease & desist order from Rack9.

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/2012/02/racknine-says-pat-martin-defamed-company/

(wait for the expletives now)

The dialling service Racknine has served the NDP Party as well as NDP MP Pat Martin legal notice through their lawyer demanding an apology for Martin's comments:

You have committed defamation with reckless regard for our clients' standing and reputation in the community.

[olpfan1]

Uh oh, demanding an apology or else you'll sue sounds like extortion

isn't that why some posters are angry at anonymous?

[waldo]

Coverage has pointed out there is no evidence that Mr. Harper's campaign or those of any of the other candidates were involved in the call.

actually, coverage has pointed out that, per norm within an active ongoing investigation, Elections Canada has made no announcements. Coverage has also pointed out that Harper and other Conservatives are advising he/they, "see nothing, hear nothing, know nothing"!

[Wild Bill]

Uh oh, demanding an apology or else you'll sue sounds like extortion

isn't that why some posters are angry at anonymous?

No!

The difference is patently obvious.

[olpfan1]

No!

The difference is patently obvious.

We cant have people threatening to sue government officials if they do not apologize

well that will lead to total chaos!!

[Wild Bill]

I'm with you on this one. The intelligent Right on this forum is just laying low until this pans out. What you're witnessing right now is the vocal trolls of the Right that give the Conservatives a bad name.

You know CC, something puzzles me here. I can understand one or maybe a few Tory idiots doing something like this, especially at the riding worker level, without the candidate necessarily knowing. I don't think it's likely but hey, it's politics! Look at that stinker Rahim Jaffer.

What I can't understand is why the Tories would have done this as a high level policy! They were going to win anyway!

Has everybody forgotten the situation during the last election? The Liberal support was in free fall! The Tories were polling high all over the place!

True, the NDP surge was far higher than most pollsters were predicting but to hear Rae and Martin tell it, the only reason they lost ANY seats was because of dirty tricks sanctioned straight from Harper's office!

If this scandal is as true, deep and widespread as Rae and Martin are painting it then I just can't for the life of me see why the Tories bothered! Nothing is as insecure as a political secret. They would have known that eventually it would come back to haunt them!

I could understand the Liberals having done it as a desperation move to try to keep enough seats to survive but why on earth would the Tories have felt the need to do so? Considering the consequences when the truth came out?

Now I know that some posters here would simply tell us that Tories do such things simply because they are evil and take fiendish delight in such tricks but you have always been a bit more sensible. Do you really think this scandal has legs? Is it as bad as Rae and Martin are painting? Is there truly sound logic behind such a premise?

[GostHacked]

You know, I'm surprised at the Booster Clubs reaction here. I would think that they would be calling for a full investigation as loud as anyone else. Is suspected voter suppression/electoral fraud such a small issue for you all?

That is the underlying issue some are failing to see and understand the implications of it all. If this is an illegitamite government, then it needs to be recalled and another election. Not that I really need to go through yet another election.

If the government is illegitimate because of voter fraud, everything EVERYTHING they have done to this point (passing laws, starting wars, ect ect ect ... is 100% illegitamite and absolutely wrong.

[scribblet]

They've already turned over all their records to Elections Canada. What if they're not afraid of the spotlight?

No to mention that the NDP has also used Racknine - hmmm they have 'ties' to it all

[scribblet]

You know CC, something puzzles me here. I can understand one or maybe a few Tory idiots doing something like this, especially at the riding worker level, without the candidate necessarily knowing. I don't think it's likely but hey, it's politics! Look at that stinker Rahim Jaffer.

What I can't understand is why the Tories would have done this as a high level policy! They were going to win anyway!

-----------------------------

It doesn't make sense to me either, if it wasn't the NDP or a group similar to anonynmous, then it was a group of 3 - 4 morally challenged campaign workers. What I still can't understand is how they would get the Liberal voters lists. It's just not possible for them to have put together their own lists, or somehow massaged the CPC lists, as they had to have names, addresses, phone numbers and actual polling locations for those addresses.

So far, it's all speculation and innuendo again with no facts and the media feeding off the likes of Pat Martin and Bob Rae who do have a lot to gain from perpetuating this.

Hopefully there will be an investigation and the CPC has turned over everything to Elections Canada, so I will still reserve judgement until we have ALL the FACTS.

[punked]

It doesn't make sense to me either, if it wasn't the NDP or a group similar to anonynmous, then it was a group of 3 - 4 morally challenged campaign workers. What I still can't understand is how they would get the Liberal voters lists. It's just not possible for them to have put together their own lists, or somehow massaged the CPC lists, as they had to have names, addresses, phone numbers and actual polling locations for those addresses.

So far, it's all speculation and innuendo again with no facts and the media feeding off the likes of Pat Martin and Bob Rae who do have a lot to gain from perpetuating this.

Hopefully there will be an investigation and the CPC has turned over everything to Elections Canada, so I will still reserve judgement until we have ALL the FACTS.

Again ANYONE can get the CPC, LIB, or NDP voter list during a campaign very easily it is on EVERY campaign computer in the country. It is not under lock and key like you seem to think.

[Wild Bill]

Again ANYONE can get the CPC, LIB, or NDP voter list during a campaign very easily it is on EVERY campaign computer in the country. It is not under lock and key like you seem to think.

Care to take a try at MY points, punked?

Or are my questions too awkward and don't serve the NDP's purpose?

[cybercoma]

What I can't understand is why the Tories would have done this as a high level policy! They were going to win anyway!

Before I respond, I just want to be clear that I didn't read the rest of you post past this question. No offense.

The ridings that were affected, according to reports anyway, were closely contested ridings where victory was anything but certain. Moreover, there had been grumblings about Harper retiring if he couldn't secure a majority government this time because it would have indicated that Canadians don't trust him enough with power. If that happened, the CPC would have had to consider a change in leadership to advance the party. It was far from certain at election time whether or not the Conservatives would get that majority. In fact, the big question at the time was whether or not the NDP and LPC would form a coalition if there was another minority government.

In light of this, everyone, even CPC supporters, acknowledge that Stephen Harper would do nearly anything to stay in power. He apologized to the aboriginal community and recognized the Quebecois as a distinct nation within Canada. This is all circumstantial and there's more indicators, but it paints a picture of a party and leader that would win at any cost. It seems at least plausible that either her personally or someone high enough on the campaign would organize a collective effort to dissuade some voters from going to the polls. There were too many ridings affected for this to be a single irresponsible campaign workers' doing and some of the calls were live calls, not just the robocalls, indicating a significant amount of money going into it. Sona would not have had the financial, information, and human resources to accomplish all of this on his own.

It remains to be seen whether the brass were aware of what's going on. That's why it's being investigated. Obviously the party would say that they know nothing about it. Even if they were involved they would say this. It's possible that a private third-party group may have been responsible for this because they had an interest in seeing the Conservatives in power. In fact, the way the oil industry and the private prison industry (in the US) are pulling the CPC's strings, it wouldn't be the least bit surprising if it turned out someone like that had funded, organized and carried out this operation without the CPC's knowledge.

Regardless, all of it is speculation until the investigation is completed. The electorate deserves this investigation. The integrity of our institutions depends on it. Theories aside, every single Canadian ought to be behind finding out the truth about what happened. Anyone that would turn a blind-eye to this incident would be a hypocrite not to turn a blind eye to it if it happened with another party's majority government. In that case, you might as well rip up the Elections Canada Act and say anything goes. I believe the majority of people however, regardless of what party they support, are appalled by these allegations and want honest answers as to what happened. Most people, I assume, want to see the integrity of our elections upheld.

[Guest Derek L]

I heard a rumour that Racknine received payment for this account with American funds……..The plot thickens...

[waldo]

They were going to win anyway!

Harper Conservative majority: 14 seats won by a combined total margin of... 6201 votes. Yes, that's right, a total of 6201 votes made the difference - that's it, that's all - 6201 votes.

Does anything-you-can-get-away-with mentality foster Tory cheaters? ... well, does it?

Political parties can’t be held responsible for the actions of rogue supporters. But they can he held accountable for creating environments that produce those rogues.

This is a mirror into which Stephen Harper and everyone who works for him should be looking.

[Wild Bill]

Regardless, all of it is speculation until the investigation is completed. The electorate deserves this investigation. The integrity of our institutions depends on it. Theories aside, every single Canadian ought to be behind finding out the truth about what happened. Anyone that would turn a blind-eye to this incident would be a hypocrite not to turn a blind eye to it if it happened with another party's majority government. In that case, you might as well rip up the Elections Canada Act and say anything goes. I believe the majority of people however, regardless of what party they support, are appalled by these allegations and want honest answers as to what happened. Most people, I assume, want to see the integrity of our elections upheld.

Certainly, I support an investigation! It's just that Rae and Martin really seem to be going over the top here!

You make a reasonable argument for WHY the Tories might have deliberately done this dirty deed but it still leaves unanswered WHY they would do something with such a high risk of discovery and potential for incredible negative repercussions!

It's like saying it's understandable why someone would steal a Corvette, when the Corvette is parked where there are lots of witnesses in a state where the penalty for car theft is hanging!

The whole thing strikes me as just too simplistic! Harper and his boys are many things but blatantly stupid has never been one of them!

Plus the fact that Rae and Martin have a vested interest in all the publicity they can achieve makes me deeply suspicious of their motives.

One thing's for sure, if it all comes out to be a bunch of BS we won't hear any apologies from the Opposition!

Edited February 26, 2012 by Wild Bill

[capricorn]

All this speculation flying around over the robocalls when most people don't even know how robocalling works.

Robo-calling is a form of mass notification that uses a computer to call thousands of voters with a pre-recorded phone message.

--

Robo-calls are made using an autodialing service or software. Here's how this works:

- Create a calling list by manually typing in names or importing them from another document.

- Record a message using the microphone on a computer, a telephone or text-to-speech software.

- Send the message to all the people on your call list. The software can even leave a different message if it encounters an answering machine

http://people.howstuffworks.com/how-campaign-communication-technology-works5.htm

3000 phone lines insure fast delivery for millions of messages each night

http://www.robotalker.com/

How much does it cost?

Deliver 5000 Robo-calls to voters for $375.00

http://www.robotalker.com/

Robocalls need not originate from different locations. The calls can originate from one single computer in one single location.

That's how far technology has taken us.

So until the results of the investigation are in, an investigation I fully support, I am unable to conclude that the Conservative Party instructed a large contingent of Conservative party workers in various locations to deliver a country wide campaign.

[punked]

Care to take a try at MY points, punked?

Or are my questions too awkward and don't serve the NDP's purpose?

Considering all the calls went into Southern Ontario and none into Quebec where the NDP were actually making gains on the Liberals, I think we know why it was the Cons. Just ask yourself who stood to gain the most from these calls. Come on Bill I thought you were a Reform member, you guys use to not put up with and swallow this BS from your own party. What happened?

[cybercoma]

You make a reasonable argument for WHY the Tories might have deliberately done this dirty deed but it still leaves unanswered WHY they would do something with such a high risk of discovery and potential for incredible negative repercussions!

I should introduce you to Cormac McCarthy. He detests semi-colons and exclamation points.

All kidding aside. People don't do illegal things thinking they will be caught. Looking at this case, you can see that they used a disposable cellphone, just to name one example of the attempt to obfuscate the circumstances. Moreover, the party has already distanced themselves through the fact that power in modern bureaucracies is diffuse. It's difficult to put your finger on a single individual and say "this person is entirely responsible". The party can feign ignorance and say that it was someone acting alone. In fact, it makes sense that if you were to do something this crooked, you would organize a group of individuals to do this, give them the information you need and allow them to operate at arm's length. This is how John Gotti earned the nickname "Teflon" because it's almost impossible to stick it to the guy at the top when you create a buffer and tell the foot soldiers that if they're caught, you'll disavow any knowledge of their activities.

So, I don't believe the "risks" were as readily apparent as you seem to think. The connectinos haven't been made yet and I'm cynical enough to believe that the connections won't be made. However, I'm also not stupid enough to think that some "rogue campaign worker" acted unilaterally on this. It was an organized national effort that targeted the most vulnerable ridings. That's not the work of a local lone wolf. It's almost certainly the work of a national strategist, who like Gotti has enough of a buffer between himself and the foot soldiers that it will be impossible to finger him.

[waldo]

So until the results of the investigation are in, an investigation I fully support, I am unable to conclude that the Conservative Party instructed a large contingent of Conservative party workers in various locations to deliver a country wide campaign.

single partisan Conservative supporter's statement... acknowledged

[capricorn]

Considering all the calls went into Southern Ontario and none into Quebec where the NDP were actually making gains on the Liberals,

You inadvertently hit on something punked. What if Quebec was left out because the perpetrators could not produce the messages in French? One has to wonder.

[cybercoma]

All this speculation flying around over the robocalls when most people don't even know how robocalling works.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/how-campaign-communication-technology-works5.htm

http://www.robotalker.com/

How much does it cost?

http://www.robotalker.com/

Robocalls need not originate from different locations. The calls can originate from one single computer in one single location.

That's how far technology has taken us.

So until the results of the investigation are in, an investigation I fully support, I am unable to conclude that the Conservative Party instructed a large contingent of Conservative party workers in various locations to deliver a country wide campaign.

The robocalls are only one aspect. There were live calls made as well.

[cybercoma]

Considering all the calls went into Southern Ontario and none into Quebec where the NDP were actually making gains on the Liberals, I think we know why it was the Cons. Just ask yourself who stood to gain the most from these calls. Come on Bill I thought you were a Reform member, you guys use to not put up with and swallow this BS from your own party. What happened?

Before and after Toronto map.

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/news/photos/2011/05/03/li-before-after-map-050311.jpg