Greece needs the drachma back.

[dre]

Heres some good commentary from the European parliament.

Hes absolutely bang on. Greece needs to default, return to the drachma, and liquidate all the bad debt... instead of borrowing more money from the EU/IMF in exchange for their democratic rights, their property, and their future.

Edited February 20, 2012 by dre

[dre]

[dre]

Violence in the wake of the political takeover of Greece by international bankers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/greece-violence-erupts-in-athens-anonymous-takes-down-government-web-sites/2012/02/13/gIQAtNMvAR_blog.html

[Wild Bill]

Heres some good commentary from the European parliament.

Hes absolutely bang on. Greece needs to default, return to the drachma, and liquidate all the bad debt... instead of borrowing more money from the EU/IMF in exchange for their democratic rights, their property, and their future.

Well, sounds good at first glance Dr. Dre but what would happen after they liquidated their debt? It's not likely that they could get back on their feet without MORE credit!

Who would give it to them after they stiffed all their previous lenders?

The situation would be very much the same as if you or I went bankrupt and couldn't pay all our debts and credit cards. It would be years before we would get any more credit. How would Greece survive in the meantime?

Something tells me they wouldn't get their economy back on its feet by the following weekend. People have to eat while the process goes on!

[Argus]

Hes absolutely bang on. Greece needs to default, return to the drachma, and liquidate all the bad debt... instead of borrowing more money from the EU/IMF in exchange for their democratic rights, their property, and their future.

If you default on your debt, you can't borrow money. That means they must instantly balance their budget. How are they going to do that? Print more money? Can you say Zimbabwe? Do you know Zimbabwe has a 100 trillion dollar bill? It's worth about 35 cents.

Besides, we're used to thinking of the debt being owed to banks, but how many ordinary, individual Greeks own Greek bonds? How many own shares in the banks, either on their own or through some kind of pension fund? By stiffing the banks, or throwing them into bankruptcy, you're not just stiffing rich people. You're screwing over lots of ordinary people, including Greeks, not to mention the employees of those banks...

Edited February 20, 2012 by Argus

[GostHacked]

If you default on your debt, you can't borrow money. That means they must instantly balance their budget. How are they going to do that? Print more money? Can you say Zimbabwe? Do you know Zimbabwe has a 100 trillion dollar bill? It's worth about 35 cents.

Besides, we're used to thinking of the debt being owed to banks, but how many ordinary, individual Greeks own Greek bonds? How many own shares in the banks, either on their own or through some kind of pension fund? By stiffing the banks, or throwing them into bankruptcy, you're not just stiffing rich people. You're screwing over lots of ordinary people, including Greeks, not to mention the employees of those banks...

You can buy Greek Bonds, but what is that worth if the country has to borrow money from a world bank at interest? These bail outs are designed so that these technocrats can own these countries afterwards. Greece will never get out of debt if they keep getting bailed out. They are continually owing more and more.

All this is by design. This is a financial war take over.

[Topaz]

I wonder if the 2004 summer games to host olympics had any effect on their debt, it must have.. Maybe countries will think twice before wanting to host them, and G20, G8's where it cost a lot to put on.

[dre]

Well, sounds good at first glance Dr. Dre but what would happen after they liquidated their debt? It's not likely that they could get back on their feet without MORE credit!

Who would give it to them after they stiffed all their previous lenders?

The situation would be very much the same as if you or I went bankrupt and couldn't pay all our debts and credit cards. It would be years before we would get any more credit. How would Greece survive in the meantime?

Something tells me they wouldn't get their economy back on its feet by the following weekend. People have to eat while the process goes on!

Look... Greece has some medicine to take and theres going to be years of tough times whether they trade democracy for more bailouts or not.

If Greece went back to its own currency it would immediately lose much of its value, which would have the effect of across the board wage cuts, and it would increase the cost of imports while making domestic production cheaper and more competitive.

This is called competitive devaluation, it tastes really bad for a while but its the medicine that puts you on course to be healthy again some day. The approach by the EU/ECB/IMF is to keep Greece mired in debt, in exchange for surrendering real property, and to do everything possible to strip greeks of their democratic rights.

That is why the capital is burning.

Something tells me they wouldn't get their economy back on its feet by the following weekend. People have to eat while the process goes on!

It would take a few years to rebuild their economy, maybe as long as a decade.

Why would eating be a problem? Greece is a strong producer of wheat, corn, barley, sugar beets, olives, tomatoes, tobacco, potatoes, beef, dairy products and wine.

Greece is the PERFECT EXAMPLE of a country where the currency value should fall (and along with it wages, and the cost of production). Its a poster child for the reason we have the floating exchange rate system in the first place. The problem is because its in the Eurozone this cant happen. It was a huge mistake to take a bunch of countries with completely different economies and arbitrarily decide its a good idea for them to share currency.

[dre]

If you default on your debt, you can't borrow money. That means they must instantly balance their budget. How are they going to do that? Print more money? Can you say Zimbabwe? Do you know Zimbabwe has a 100 trillion dollar bill? It's worth about 35 cents.

Besides, we're used to thinking of the debt being owed to banks, but how many ordinary, individual Greeks own Greek bonds? How many own shares in the banks, either on their own or through some kind of pension fund? By stiffing the banks, or throwing them into bankruptcy, you're not just stiffing rich people. You're screwing over lots of ordinary people, including Greeks, not to mention the employees of those banks...

but how many ordinary, individual Greeks own Greek bonds? How many own shares in the banks

So what? Those people and banks invested in an entity that was not behaving responsibly! Of COURSE they are going to lose money! Why would you want an economic system that REWARDS this kind of malinvestment?

You're screwing over lots of ordinary people, including Greeks, not to mention the employees of those banks...

Excuse me? Those people and banks invested money in an economy where the civil service accounts for more than 1/2 of GDP, and in a country that had just been tricked into submitting itself to an extremely dangerous shared currency regime.

Edited February 20, 2012 by dre

[dre]

Basically whats going on is the EU/ECB/IMF is taking money from tax payers around the world, and using it to buy ITS OWN DEBT! Then they claim that continued demand for greek bonds is proof that their approach is sound... But what they dont mention is they are buying all those bonds THEMSELVES with taxpayer dollars.

At the end of the day you have a bunch of money printing central bankers... all completely unelected... that are siezing political power. This has to be stopped. The international central banking empire needs be brought down.

[Wild Bill]

Look... Greece has some medicine to take and theres going to be years of tough times whether they trade democracy for more bailouts or not.

If Greece went back to its own currency it would immediately lose much of its value, which would have the effect of across the board wage cuts, and it would increase the cost of imports while making domestic production cheaper and more competitive.

This is called competitive devaluation, it tastes really bad for a while but its the medicine that puts you on course to be healthy again some day. The approach by the EU/ECB/IMF is to keep Greece mired in debt, in exchange for surrendering real property, and to do everything possible to strip greeks of their democratic rights.

That is why the capital is burning.

Dr. Dre, in theory I actually agree with you! However, it's never going to happen!

The problem is political. The average Greek has no understanding of economics and doesn't care! If his wages fall he will not patiently wait to see if prices fall along with them over some months or a few years. He will riot right then, that very day!

The first election that comes along, he will also vote against all the incumbent politicians who did the proper thing, rather than promise pie in the sky and when it doesn't happen put all the blame on foreign banks!

I don't mean to be rude but if someone were to stand on a Greek street corner and shout out your beliefs and suggestions he would probably not make it home alive!

The Greek politicians are in the worst possible position. They know that they must spruce up their act or the bailout money will stop dead in its tracks. They know that the temporary hurt from such action will cause mass rioting, regardless of being best for their country in the long term.

Their best hope is to do what they have to and try to keep finding ways to blame outside forces.

[dre]

Dr. Dre, in theory I actually agree with you! However, it's never going to happen!

The problem is political. The average Greek has no understanding of economics and doesn't care! If his wages fall he will not patiently wait to see if prices fall along with them over some months or a few years. He will riot right then, that very day!

The first election that comes along, he will also vote against all the incumbent politicians who did the proper thing, rather than promise pie in the sky and when it doesn't happen put all the blame on foreign banks!

I don't mean to be rude but if someone were to stand on a Greek street corner and shout out your beliefs and suggestions he would probably not make it home alive!

The Greek politicians are in the worst possible position. They know that they must spruce up their act or the bailout money will stop dead in its tracks. They know that the temporary hurt from such action will cause mass rioting, regardless of being best for their country in the long term.

Their best hope is to do what they have to and try to keep finding ways to blame outside forces.

The problem is political. The average Greek has no understanding of economics and doesn't care! If his wages fall he will not patiently wait to see if prices fall along with them over some months or a few years. He will riot right then, that very day!

The first election that comes along, he will also vote against all the incumbent politicians who did the proper thing, rather than promise pie in the sky and when it doesn't happen put all the blame on foreign banks!

If its a democracy the people should get a say, whether or not you agree with how they vote. Now these people have an unelected prime minister that has been installed by a bunch of unelected foreign bankers, and the capitol city is burning.

Your concern is actually the number one reason why we have the floating exchange rate system. Its a market based approach, and it would run its course regardless of how greeks chose to vote. Wages are reduced through natural market devaluation of currency instead of contraversial acts of government.

I don't mean to be rude but if someone were to stand on a Greek street corner and shout out your beliefs and suggestions he would probably not make it home alive!

Thats a little bit backwards. All Im saying is that democracy should not be replaced with an economic coup of unelected international bankers. My message would actually be quite popular, and its YOU that would be in a lot of trouble after giving your little speech about how international bankers need to make political decisions in Greece because the people are too stupid.

These people have no interest in greece. They are trying to save the Eurozone, and enrich themselves and the new unelected political class that has emerged.

And lets not forget, that when you throw your tacit support behind the suspension of democracy, who you are REALLY putting in charge. The same international bankers responsible for all that malinvestment in the first place. The same international bankers that were taking tax dollars from all around the world and investing it a country whos civil service accounts for more than 1/2 of their GDP. The same unelected and accountable international bankers that caused the economic meltdown in 07/08.

Edited February 20, 2012 by dre

[Post To The Left]

I wonder if the 2004 summer games to host Olympics had any effect on their debt, it must have.. Maybe countries will think twice before wanting to host them, and G20, G8's where it cost a lot to put on.

The whole Greek Olympic process was incredibly corrupt and inept. It went billions of dollars over budget and definitely contributed to the debt situation. But the big thing was how Greece basically cooked the books for decades in order to appear like a good country to give debts to:

[in 2001] a new, centre-right government was elected. Peter Doukas was appointed budget minister.

"I said 'don't worry about persecution or anything, just tell me the true story'."

The difference between the published deficit and the real one was huge.

"[The gap] was about 7% of GDP," Mr Doukas says.

"The budget said the deficit was 1.5%. The real shortfall was 8.3%."

"But the answer I got at the time was 'listen, we are having the Olympic Games in a few months and we cannot upset the whole population and start having strikes and everything just before the Olympic Games'."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16834815

The Greeks are reeping what they sowed.

The organisers got their wish, but for all the wrong reasons. Athens's legacy is among the worst of any Olympiad. Four years after the closing ceremony of the Games that former International Olympic Committee president Juan Antonio Samaranch called the "best ever", as many as 21 out of the 22 venues lie abandoned. The open-air swimming pool is empty and stained, while squatters camp outside the graffiti-festooned Faliron complex, which hosted events such as taekwondo and beach volleyball.

The Athens Olympics, which cost a record £9.4bn to stage (way over its original budget, which rocketed after the September 11 terrorist attacks increased security costs) have left Greece groaning under a huge debt. In the months after the Games, the shortfall amounted to €50,000 for each Greek household, and taxpayers are still footing the bill.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/after-the-party-what-happens-when-the-olympics-leave-town-901629.html

Edited February 21, 2012 by Post To The Left

[Post To The Left]

Hes absolutely bang on. Greece needs to default, return to the drachma, and liquidate all the bad debt... instead of borrowing more money from the EU/IMF in exchange for their democratic rights, their property, and their future.

It's not just about Greece anymore. A lot of countries, and major banks have heavily invested in Greece when it was still cooking its books to look more attractive than it was. If it was as simple as defaulting then they would default. But because the banking system is so fragile right now if Greece goes it might cause a chain reaction bankrupting banks across Europe and throwing other bigger countries with economies that matter into a tail spin.

The PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain) countries are teetering on the brink in similar situations. But where the Greek economy is tiny these other countries (Italy is a world industrial leader) are to important to falter.

[Wolf Larsen]

The capitalist EU is just not working. It is a gigantic failure. The time has come to put the banksters on trial as theives and nationalize the banks under workers control. What Europe needs is workers revolutions. The workers in Europe should take power from the banksters and the capitalist politicians.