Jerry J. Fortin Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 The Haganah did not deliberately target civilians. That is a huge difference. Even the Irgun, which was a bit more willing to inflict collateral damage, tried to find military targets. They were not pizza parlor bombers. Certainly not! I must beg your forgiveness, I meant to suggest that what matters is who is calling who what and how. The English who sat in Israel, were decidedly pro-Arab. I am trying to say that perception is everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 The Haganah did not deliberately target civilians. That is a huge difference. Even the Irgun, which was a bit more willing to inflict collateral damage, tried to find military targets. They were not pizza parlor bombers. Kingdom of Israel group, Gush Emunim Underground, etc. Theres a bunch of different groups that have targeted civilians, and non military targets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Certainly not! I must beg your forgiveness, I meant to suggest that what matters is who is calling who what and how. The English who sat in Israel, were decidedly pro-Arab. I am trying to say that perception is everything. Jerry, I know you're O.K. I was posting that material for the benefit of those who constantly refer to Menachem Begin and the Stern Gang/Irgun as "terrorists". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Jerry, I know you're O.K. I was posting that material for the benefit of those who constantly refer to Menachem Begin and the Stern Gang/Irgun as "terrorists". When you have to fight to create a nation, you will likely not come up lily white in the eyes of those who lost the fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted February 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Kingdom of Israel group, Gush Emunim Underground, etc. Theres a bunch of different groups that have targeted civilians, and non military targets. When you have to fight to create a nation, you will likely not come up lily white in the eyes of those who lost the fight. There are those that would prefer that the only new nations be economic basket cases dependent on succor by the U.N. and international aid. The idea of a new Western country forming is poison to them. Thus the point of the opening post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry J. Fortin Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 There are those that would prefer that the only new nations be economic basket cases dependent on succor by the U.N. and international aid. The idea of a new Western country forming is poison to them. Thus the point of the opening post. My national identity is one in which the creation of my nation took place without a single drop of blood being spilled over very little different land that had cost tens of thousands of lives a short century of years before. You could say that the English learned from their mistakes, but somehow that does not prove accurate in the least. Many more lessons were painfully learned by England, before it became a more benevolent United Kingdom. Yet it retains the "Parliament" a cheesy form of democracy loaded in nepotism and cronyism. Hence the more modern and efficient system developed by the Americans. Which is not without its own drawbacks, I must add. There just seems to be something wrong with electing cops and dog catchers to the British type of citizen.... At any rate, I must say that I really believe that at this particular point in time, very nearly all nations are economic basket cases. To that end I will suggest that one way or another the crap is about to hit the fan. I am not sure what the driving forces of politics are that build nations, whether it is an identity of race or religion, or whether or not it is a moral/ethical regional difference, or a fiscal or monetary difference because it really doesn't make any difference in my view, its just communities here and there that matter. That and our desire to stand with like minded citizens is all that really matters. The concept being that in order to live in peace we must be willing to die in war, a kind of human based mutual assured destruction. Unfortunately I think that in order to accomplish this feat we will have to finally address the reality of class structure within a society. We really do need a class structure based upon merit and effort. Believe it or not there are classes of society that we have entrenched within law. There are rights and freedoms to consider, and a citizen convicted of a crime becomes a lesser class of citizen, that of one being penalized. This is the old world version of the slave and the free person. It doesn't matter how you look at it, when you really do look at it you can't miss the class structures all around us. I guess what I am trying so badly to say is that the root of all evil is not money, nor is it blood. I think that it is quite simply class warfare that will have to play itself out. Evil is simply warfare, in today's terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Hence the more modern and efficient system developed by the Americans. More efficient? Not on this planet. Modern? Maybe, but, who really cares about modern? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 There are those that would prefer that the only new nations be economic basket cases dependent on succor by the U.N. and international aid. The idea of a new Western country forming is poison to them. Thus the point of the opening post. What countries get more foreign aid then Israel? There might be a few but not many. Not only do they get billions in direct foreign aid but the US has been paying Egypt to be nice to Israel for about 30 years as well. The US gives about as much in aid to Israel and Egypt as it does the entire continent of Africa. Perrenial welfare recipient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westguy Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Quebec is exploiting the rest of Canada financially. For example, OUR tac dollars (via transfer payments) are subsidizing their university tuition while our students are paying 12,000$ per year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilter Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 My national identity is one in which the creation of my nation took place without a single drop of blood being spilled over very little different land that had cost tens of thousands of lives a short century of years before. You could say that the English learned from their mistakes, but somehow that does not prove accurate in the least. Many more lessons were painfully learned by England, before it became a more benevolent United Kingdom. Yet it retains the "Parliament" a cheesy form of democracy loaded in nepotism and cronyism. Hence the more modern and efficient system developed by the Americans. Which is not without its own drawbacks, I must add. There just seems to be something wrong with electing cops and dog catchers to the British type of citizen.... At any rate, I must say that I really believe that at this particular point in time, very nearly all nations are economic basket cases. To that end I will suggest that one way or another the crap is about to hit the fan. I am not sure what the driving forces of politics are that build nations, whether it is an identity of race or religion, or whether or not it is a moral/ethical regional difference, or a fiscal or monetary difference because it really doesn't make any difference in my view, its just communities here and there that matter. That and our desire to stand with like minded citizens is all that really matters. The concept being that in order to live in peace we must be willing to die in war, a kind of human based mutual assured destruction. Unfortunately I think that in order to accomplish this feat we will have to finally address the reality of class structure within a society. We really do need a class structure based upon merit and effort. Believe it or not there are classes of society that we have entrenched within law. There are rights and freedoms to consider, and a citizen convicted of a crime becomes a lesser class of citizen, that of one being penalized. This is the old world version of the slave and the free person. It doesn't matter how you look at it, when you really do look at it you can't miss the class structures all around us. I guess what I am trying so badly to say is that the root of all evil is not money, nor is it blood. I think that it is quite simply class warfare that will have to play itself out. Evil is simply warfare, in today's terms. You wrote a very interesting post BUT---- which country was formed without spilling a drop of blood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 My national identity is one in which the creation of my nation took place without a single drop of blood being spilled over very little different land that had cost tens of thousands of lives a short century of years before.... Really? You are saying that your national identity is defined in terms of what happened in another time and place? That seems odd to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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