Michael Hardner Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 Oh I know someone will now say nya nya! the USA -NATO forces kill Muslims all the time...yada yada. Not the same at all! Sure a radical terrorist Islamist, enemy group or individual is targeted and there are sometimes collateral civilian Muslims killed but they aren't purposely targeted simply because they aren't Christian ,or because they are Muslims. Do you think that this would make them feel better about collateral casualties ? Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 Well.. the real difference is a lot of christians live in secular nations of law. They behave because well chuck their asses in jail if they dont. Muslims in secular countries behave better as well. So left to their own devices and traditions, Christians will immediately start burning folks for heresy, witchcraft, etc? Revert to the 1600s so to speak? Can I have a modern example, please? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
The_Squid Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 So left to their own devices and traditions, Christians will immediately start burning folks for heresy, witchcraft, etc? Revert to the 1600s so to speak? Can I have a modern example, please? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-denounce_n_324943.html His family pastor had accused him of being a witch, and his father then tried to force acid down his throat as an exorcism. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/18/african-children-denounce_n_324943.html Well that's one. How about an entire movement? CARL SAGAN'S BALONEY DETECTION KIT Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument. Argument from "authority". Argument from adverse consequences (putting pressure on the decision maker by pointing out dire consequences of an "unfavourable" decision). Appeal to ignorance (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence). Special pleading (typically referring to god's will). Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased). Observational selection (counting the hits and forgetting the misses). Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes). Misunderstanding the nature of statistics (President Eisenhower expressing astonishment and alarm on discovering that fully half of all Americans have below average intelligence!) Inconsistency (e.g. military expenditures based on worst case scenarios but scientific projections on environmental dangers thriftily ignored because they are not "proved"). Non sequitur - "it does not follow" - the logic falls down. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - "it happened after so it was caused by" - confusion of cause and effect. Meaningless question ("what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?). Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the "other side" look worse than it really is). Short-term v. long-term - a subset of excluded middle ("why pursue fundamental science when we have so huge a budget deficit?"). Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects (give an inch and they will take a mile). Confusion of correlation and causation. Straw man - caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack.. Suppressed evidence or half-truths. Weasel words - for example, use of euphemisms for war such as "police action" to get around limitations on Presidential powers. "An important art of politicians is to find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the public" http://users.tpg.com.au/horsts/baloney.html Edited February 7, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Michael Hardner Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 I would also call that 'anecdotal' perhaps... here's a story of something that happened... THEREFORE... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 One should point out, too, that African Christianity can have many trappings of traditional African religions. Like their seeing witches everywhere. There are videos online of rather violent witch burnings in Africa that nobody would call Christianity in the sense it is understood in the West. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
The_Squid Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 Can I have a modern example, please?Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes). I didn't realize that you asking for "a modern example" meant that you actually wanted 10,000 modern examples... Show me where I drew any statistical conclusions.... You asked for a modern example and I easily found one. If you know how to use google you will find many others... a documentary about the problem... a NY Times article about the problem in Nigeria... It seems to be a problem in Christian Africa... how big is it? I don't know, and you didn't ask. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 See above. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
The_Squid Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 One should point out, too, that African Christianity can have many trappings of traditional African religions. Like their seeing witches everywhere. There are videos online of rather violent witch burnings in Africa that nobody would call Christianity in the sense it is understood in the West. That's like saying it wasn't really Christians that burned witches in the past because modern western Christians would never do such a thing. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 That's like saying it wasn't really Christians that burned witches in the past because modern western Christians would never do such a thing. I'm not allowed to post these videos here (a few warnings...) so you'll just have to trust me that these witch hunts have zero resemblance to Christianity as YOU know it. But sure, if you want to pretend the church-going folks down your street want to do likewise, have at 'er. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
The_Squid Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 See above. So perhaps you should have said "Other than Africans (who aren't really Christians) show me a modern example". Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 Recycled argument alert: The attempt to blame religion - any religion - for something or other never seems to get anywhere here. That includes the pervasive blaming of all ills on Christianity, which some on here have tried to do... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
The_Squid Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 Recycled argument alert: The attempt to blame religion - any religion - for something or other never seems to get anywhere here. That includes the pervasive blaming of all ills on Christianity, which some on here have tried to do... If one does not want to see any of the ills still perpetrated by the devoutly religious, then one should not ask for "a modern example" of them. I did not claim this was widespread or that it was condoned by the Pope. It was an answer to the question "Christians will immediately start burning folks for heresy, witchcraft, etc?" Well.... obviously some still do!! Those Christians seem to be a bit behind the times... Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 7, 2012 Report Posted February 7, 2012 If one does not want to see any of the ills still perpetrated by the devoutly religious, then one should not ask for "a modern example" of them. I did not claim this was widespread or that it was condoned by the Pope. It was an answer to the question "Christians will immediately start burning folks for heresy, witchcraft, etc?" Well.... obviously some still do!! Those Christians seem to be a bit behind the times... Right... but.... it still doesn't work. The problem is that there is no way to isolate religion (eg. Christianity) as a cause of bad behaviour. So the example means nothing to the big picture. Even asking for the example is a step into illogic, since the example would prove nothing... Quote Looks like someone has a new patronizing catch phrase ! Michael Hardner
dre Posted February 8, 2012 Report Posted February 8, 2012 So left to their own devices and traditions, Christians will immediately start burning folks for heresy, witchcraft, etc? Revert to the 1600s so to speak? Can I have a modern example, please? Theres few modern examples because we stripped religion of all its civil power a century or two ago, and relegated them to "private club" status with the same ammount of civil authority as the girl guides club. Just take a look at how they behaved when the church was the state. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
DogOnPorch Posted February 8, 2012 Report Posted February 8, 2012 So perhaps you should have said "Other than Africans (who aren't really Christians) show me a modern example". Yawn. Yep....Daktari. Great TV show. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted February 8, 2012 Report Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Theres few modern examples because we stripped religion of all its civil power a century or two ago, and relegated them to "private club" status with the same ammount of civil authority as the girl guides club. Like multiculturalism, religion isn't a two-way street. While you and I might put religion on the back burner, others have it front and centre. Just take a look at how they behaved when the church was the state. When, exactly? Edited February 8, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted February 8, 2012 Report Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) When, exactly? When they had civil authority. Like multiculturalism, religion isn't a two-way street. While you and I might put religion on the back burner, others have it front and centre. Good for them. The girl guides can have selling cookies front and center too. The point is that religious people in the west (not just Christians) behave better, both because they live in a more structured society with a massive security apparatus to crush them if they step out of line, and because they have no authority. Edited February 8, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Posted February 8, 2012 Right... but.... it still doesn't work. The problem is that there is no way to isolate religion (eg. Christianity) as a cause of bad behaviour. So the example means nothing to the big picture. Even asking for the example is a step into illogic, since the example would prove nothing... I don't think religion is the entire problem. I think a lot of it is the cultures that the various religions overlay. Islam developed in the deserts. Even pre-Islam these areas were dangerous places. Places such as Carthage, Sodom and Gomorrah, and groups such as the Philistines, Amelkites, and Jebusites, and similar warring tribes throughout much of the area bracketed by what is now Pakistan to Morocco were the scenes of unremitting warfare, child sacrifice and animal worship, sex and abuse. The Israelites were a little better though hardly perfect as, from time to time, was Persia and Egypt. It is against this background that Islam developed. Islam's original function was to reduce internecine bloodshed among these tribes. To that extent, by eliminating rival, corporeal "G-ds" and creating monotheism Islam's development was constructive. The problem was that the religion couldn't tame, or be expected to tame, the warrior instincts. To some extent, over the years, that instinct has become engrafted into at least certain strains of Islam. Whether the problem is a cultural or religious one is irrelevant to people on the 90th floor of a pair of skyscrapers in New York City. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
DogOnPorch Posted February 9, 2012 Report Posted February 9, 2012 When they had civil authority. When and where? There's a general 4 digit number (or less) that we use to describe what year an event took place. Where should be self evident. Good for them. The girl guides can have selling cookies front and center too. The point is that religious people in the west (not just Christians) behave better, both because they live in a more structured society with a massive security apparatus to crush them if they step out of line, and because they have no authority. Behaving better than what? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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