Evening Star Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 Thanks, cybercoma. Those are my issues with MMP as well. Quote
Evening Star Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Finally watching the last leadership debate. Wow, Singh has come a long way since the first debate. He may be my #2 pick so far based on this first answer. Edit: The more Ashton goes on about 'her generation', the more I'm getting embarrassed to be part of it. Edit 2: Ugh, seriously, lowering the voting age? One more reason to stay away from Cullen. Edited March 13, 2012 by Evening Star Quote
j44 Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 Finally watching the last leadership debate. Wow, Singh has come a long way since the first debate. He may be my #2 pick so far based on this first answer. Edit: The more Ashton goes on about 'her generation', the more I'm getting embarrassed to be part of it. Edit 2: Ugh, seriously, lowering the voting age? One more reason to stay away from Cullen. Singh does impress me more and more but....actually I was just going to say I wouldn't put him anywhere near 2nd on my list but then I thought of the rest of the field. Nash, Dewar and Topp don't do anything for me. Ashton somehow manages to get worse and worse and get further away from answering questions. I think she used to come close to something that at least resembled an answer. That Cullen line turned me off too. And I like him. And didn't he say something about 17 year olds being 'forced into the army' too? I thought he did well overall if you take those two lines away. Quote
madmax Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) You're quite right. We have been hearing these calls for electoral reform every since Harper first won a minority. Nobody cared before! If we just ignore the position of the CCF/NDP on electoral reforom and the Social Credit/Reform position of electoral reform... and we only look back to the Liberal era of Jean Chretien and the power base and majority weren't in the mood for electoral reform as they were busy infighting.. and erm.. you would be right.. except that we can't ignore those other parties... Things happen in stages... and things take time... Electoral Reform of the Senate should be an easy goal as the Government and Opposition are in agreement for major change.. no different when it was the 1st and 3rd party... but there was always an excuse.. Elect or abolish.. Abolish or Elect. but instead we get a steady stream of hacks no different the what the Liberals did. Now.. the government could go for electoral reform and even PR in the Senate.. or they could abolish it... Or they could set up a phoney election system where party hacks pretend to run and represent regions... Or they could just appoint hacks... Meanwhile .. as the Government of 5 years hasn't addressed the issues.. Ideas which have existed before.. yes before Harpers win in 2006 are being discussed.. particularly PR. Ideas for Electoral reform which have been openly in the NDP platform since 2004 IIRC. Your position that nobody cared before is not accurate. what is possibly different is that Liberals are discussing this.. which isn't new either... Liberals in Ontario and BC have proposed Electoral Reform.. thats right and NO SIGN OF HARPER IN SIGHT.. And held referendums.. which when given to the public were close in one case and soundly rejected in 2 others. But none of this is new... and none of this is related to Harper.. However, the desire for "Progressives" to want to band together is also not new.. For a history of that .. read Progressive Party... which existe before the Social credit and CCF... So..are Progressives likely to band against the Republican style of government provided by the Harper Government.. I think so.. Edited March 13, 2012 by madmax Quote
fellowtraveller Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 that wouldn't stop the ndp and lpc from making a coalition and going to the GG where-having just lost an election- they'd be turned away. Some people are just sore losers. Quote The government should do something.
fellowtraveller Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 Well the NDP and Greens have always cared because it would benefit them more, but I suppose you could be correct. Not quite: the NDP support proportional representation when it benefits them and are silent when it does not. Two examples of when they fall strangely silent are when they are/were govts in Manitoba and Saskatchewan.Nary a hint of proprep then. Quote The government should do something.
Newfoundlander Posted March 13, 2012 Author Report Posted March 13, 2012 If a party can form a majority in FPTP then that system is working for them and they won't care about fixing it. Quote
Bryan Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 If a party can form a majority in FPTP then that system is working for them and they won't care about fixing it. Conversely, only the losers cry out for alternative vote accounting. I blame the schools. No-fail policies, and "participant" awards have set people up for disappointment when they actually lose in real life. Quote
Wild Bill Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 Now.. the government could go for electoral reform and even PR in the Senate.. or they could abolish it... Meanwhile .. as the Government of 5 years hasn't addressed the issues.. Ideas which have existed before.. yes before Harpers win in 2006 are being discussed.. particularly PR. Ideas for Electoral reform which have been openly in the NDP platform since 2004 IIRC. Your position that nobody cared before is not accurate. what is possibly different is that Liberals are discussing this.. which isn't new either... Liberals in Ontario and BC have proposed Electoral Reform.. thats right and NO SIGN OF HARPER IN SIGHT.. Do you really think it fair to blame Harper for lack of Senate reform these past 5 years, Max? While he was in a minority situation the idea was totally impossible. Or at least, highly unlikely. The duty of the Opposition is to oppose, after all. I stand corrected about the NDP talking about electoral reform for a while. They may not have represented the lion's share of people but you are right, they were talking about it. However, that only emphasizes my point that it is the "losers" who push this idea! The NDP has never and possibly will never be able to take power under the existing system, simply because they don't command enough support. Their only hope is to change the rules, since they don't seem to want to change themselves. Jack obviously was working on modernizing them but Jack is gone. Of course the Liberals now talk about the idea! They're now losers too! When they were the "natural governing party", how often did we hear such talk out of them? Like it or not, Harper won his majority because he convinced more voters than any other party to back him. Some might play math games and make assumptions about how those that didn't vote would have voted but it is all just noise. In any true democracy, you win power by having more supporters than any other party. Normally, if you can't do that you change your platform to be more attractive to more voters. Today, it seems the losers would rather change the rules of the game, making them so complicated that no one will notice that they just aren't as popular! To me, this is just a naked power game and frankly, I can't respect it! It is a way of limiting the power of the people in favour of the power of some politicians. People should not have to jump through hoops for politicians. Politicians should have to jump through hoops for US! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Newfoundlander Posted March 13, 2012 Author Report Posted March 13, 2012 Cullen seems to be building a lot of momentum. Quote
PIK Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 The bloc has overtaken the NDP in quebec and the infighting going on during this leadership could kill the NDP, it was definitely jack's party. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
UofGPolitico Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 The bloc has overtaken the NDP in quebec and the infighting going on during this leadership could kill the NDP, it was definitely jack's party. Nope. New poll out last suggests the NDP is back out front, albeit in a tight 3 way race between the Dippers, the Grits and the Bloc. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iiEu3x6ef8w/T1oN9DRsKcI/AAAAAAAAHYc/ejtQyiMPcNM/s1600/Forum.PNG If Mulcair is declared the leader, the NDP no doubt will experience a honeymoon surge there. There is no point assessing the Quebec situation until much closer to 2015. It will be volatile. A lot will happen before then. The Quebec provincial election, new NDP leader, new Liberal leader, and I am sure the Tories have a trick or two up their sleeve to try and appeal to Quebec as well. Quote
fellowtraveller Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 If a party can form a majority in FPTP then that system is working for them and they won't care about fixing it. Translation: NDP 'principles' are a matter of convenience Quote The government should do something.
fellowtraveller Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 The Quebec provincial election, new NDP leader, new Liberal leader, and I am sure the Tories have a trick or two up their sleeve to try and appeal to Quebec as well. But only one of those has the ultimate trick up their sleeves: billions of dollars. Guess who? Quote The government should do something.
UofGPolitico Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 Translation: NDP 'principles' are a matter of convenience As with any party lol. There were Liberals openly musing about electoral reform in the days after their humiliating defeat last May. Quote
Newfoundlander Posted March 13, 2012 Author Report Posted March 13, 2012 As with any party lol. There were Liberals openly musing about electoral reform in the days after their humiliating defeat last May. Electoral reform is one of their policies now. Quote
fellowtraveller Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 As with any party lol. There were Liberals openly musing about electoral reform in the days after their humiliating defeat last May. Yes, but only the insufferably pompous NDP pretends otherwise. Funny, all those majority NDP governments in Saskatchewan and Manitoba and they never found the time to implement proprep. Quote The government should do something.
Evening Star Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 (edited) Conversely, only the losers cry out for alternative vote accounting. I blame the schools. No-fail policies, and "participant" awards have set people up for disappointment when they actually lose in real life. I hardly think our electoral system is absolutely perfect and beyond any sort of questioning or challenge. Edit: And, remember, I don't even necessarily support PR myself. Edited March 13, 2012 by Evening Star Quote
Evening Star Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 The bloc has overtaken the NDP in quebec and the infighting going on during this leadership could kill the NDP, it was definitely jack's party. Is this the first leadership race you've ever seen in your life? This is possibly the least infighting I've seen in a leadership contest. The disagreements between candidates are so minor that I fell asleep during the last debate. Quote
UofGPolitico Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 Electoral reform is one of their policies now. I am sure if they ever were to gain power again, that policy would quietly disappear. Quote
Newfoundlander Posted March 13, 2012 Author Report Posted March 13, 2012 I am sure if they ever were to gain power again, that policy would quietly disappear. I'd say it would for any party. Harper was a supporter of electoral reform. Quote
UofGPolitico Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 I'd say it would for any party. Harper was a supporter of electoral reform. Exactly. When the system favours you, it only makes sense you would be advocating for the status quo. Quote
Evening Star Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 Is this the first leadership race you've ever seen in your life? This is possibly the least infighting I've seen in a leadership contest. The disagreements between candidates are so minor that I fell asleep during the last debate. Admittedly, I kind of assume that Cullen is a moron and tune out whatever he says so I might be overlooking some important disagreements. Quote
j44 Posted March 13, 2012 Report Posted March 13, 2012 Admittedly, I kind of assume that Cullen is a moron and tune out whatever he says so I might be overlooking some important disagreements. Why do you assume he's a moron? Quote
Evening Star Posted March 14, 2012 Report Posted March 14, 2012 Why do you assume he's a moron? I guess "assume" is the wrong word: I conclude that he's a moron based on the ideas that he has presented so far and as a result, I tune him out. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.