New Helicopter Purchase

[Argus]

Well, the Liberals under Paul Martin have shown they're just as uncaring about the well-being of either taxpayers or the military as the Liberals under Jean Chretien. Big surprise! Despite Paul Martin's claims that he would ensure the military got the best possible equipmement he announced today the purchase of the bargain basement Sikorski model which is still on the drawing boards. Critics have severe doubts the company will be able to produce the aircraft any time soon. They say the cost was only 1% less than the larger, faster, more robust EH101 which could operate out at sea longer and carry more people. The EH101 would also have had an extra engine (handy if your engine breaks down out over the ocean).

In addition, it would have been much cheaper to maintain one type of helicopter rather than two. Now the CAF will need two training programs, will have to have entirely different manuals, flight simulators, and mechanical manuals and training for the crews and maintenance staff, and keep two seperate stores of supplies. Right off the bat this is estimated to cost us about $400 million extra - eliminating any savings from the Sikorski model being 1% cheaper than the EH101.

No, this decision was entirely political, made to save face for the Liberal Party, at a cost of probably a billion or more to taxpayers (when you include the inevitably successful lawsuit from the makers of the EH101)

Last time around we had to pay them nearly $500 for renegging on signed contracts. How much this time around for cheating on the bidding process? Another $500 million? All for the ego of Jean Chretien and the Liberal Party. Add in the extra cost of all the delays, the extra cost of two types of helicopter - hell, let's make ti an even $2 billion. That's TWO BILLION DOLLARS that could have been spent on worthwhile projects, utterly wasted.

[Stoker]

Add the 700 million for the 15 SAR birds, then the 1.9 billion in life time support to them, then the Liberals purchase of 43 "off the self" helicopters is getting closer to 8 billion dollars............You could also add to that total the costs with maintain an older helicopter in the Sea King until past 2010!@!!

Now go back to 93 and Mulroneys deal for 50, top of the line helicopters (which we would had by now), that would have cost us just over 5 billion (abit 93 dollars).

So to figure out how much money has been wasted on these new, lesser helicopters we just need to figure out what 5 billion "93 dollars" would be worth today, then subtract from the Liberal bill.

Now the other thing that I find, shall we say odd, is that Sikorsky is going to build these Helicopters with the help of "Big B"............

[maplesyrup]

Doesn't Canada manufacture helecoptors?

And if not, why not?

Why are we jobbing out all these good jobs and money?

Sounds like the the Campbell Liberals in BC jobbing out the building of 3 ferries overseas.

So much for keeping good jobs in Canada, eh!

Typical right wing approach to government business - won't Canadians ever learn?

[Stoker]

Doesn't Canada manufacture helecoptors?

And if not, why not?

Yes and No. We have forgein companies that build in Canada.

As for why we don't have our own industry.......probably because we couldn't sustain it properly (Same with shipbuilding etc)

Why are we jobbing out all these good jobs and money?

Sounds like the the Campbell Liberals in BC jobbing out the building of 3 ferries overseas.

No market = No industry............besides, if Canada did show signs of being able to support a defence industry, all the ones of your ilk would be crying Military-Industrial Complex.

[Bakunin]

Yesterday in the news thei were saying that those helicopters worth more than the fregate thei will be put on.

[kimmy]

Doesn't Canada manufacture helecoptors?

And if not, why not?

Why are we jobbing out all these good jobs and money?

Sounds like the the Campbell Liberals in BC jobbing out the building of 3 ferries overseas.

So much for keeping good jobs in Canada, eh!

Typical right wing approach to government business - won't Canadians ever learn?

Part of the contract guarantees that Sikorsky will put billions of dollars into Canada's aerospace industry. The graphic they showed on the news indicated that $1 billion of that would be invested in the Atlantic provinces!

The 1992 EH101 contract also would have required the Cormorant consortium to invest billions of dollars into doing work in Canada.

-kimmy

[maplesyrup]

all the ones of your ilk

WTF?

[Argus]

Doesn't Canada manufacture helecoptors?

And if not, why not?

We don't have anyone making military helicopters. It's a rather specialized field. If we had a large military which would make a continuing stream of purchases to help support a homegrown industry - but we don't. So we buy them from foreign countries which then contract much of the work to Canadian subsidiaries and local contractors.

Of course, that costs a lot more than just buying them off the American (or British) assembly line, but then most military purchases are touted more for their job creatiion then for acquiring needed materials and goods. It was the same for our locally built frigates, which cost a bloody fortune as they had to be designed and built from scratch. We could have gotten twice as many if we'd bought them off the Americans.

And the jobs weren't permamanent, of course. We don't have enough of a navy to keep a military ship building program alive either.

[Argus]

Yesterday in the news thei were saying that those helicopters worth more than the fregate thei will be put on.

They were wrong. The frigates cost over a billion apiece.

[SirRiff]

If what has been reported is true, and i think that it is...

- there was only a 1% difference between the larger more powerfull ones and teh small ones...

- that we already have a supply training chain for those types of coptors

- that one is just a concept and the other proven..

then is the a unacceptable example of government being completely out of touch with reason and rational concens for the nation.

its true that we will be able to get by with this copters when they are ready, but thats not the point.

every common sense approach says spending 1% more for bigger, more reliable, more proven copters that we already have some experience in is by far the best approach.

if this is truly just politics, i think these guys need to be drug into the street and shot. seriously.

sirriff

[caesar]

: maple; "Sounds like the the Campbell Liberals in BC jobbing out the building of 3 ferries overseas. '

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Yes, and that is not the only thing Campbell is jobbing out. He is trying to send our Medical data down to American companies. Now they are promising to protect those records from the USA Home Security Act. Just keep our medical data and jobs here. We sure in the h... have many capable and trustworthy companies in BC. It seems he is jobbing out all government funded jobs to outside sources; I believe he is trying to drive up unemployment so that us dirty unwashed middle income workers/ union workers are ready to accept third world wages. He has already dropped the age for children to work with no protection to 14.

[Big Blue Machine]

If we are going to have a military, we should get the best equipement money can buy.

[Stoker]

If we are going to have a military, we should get the best equipement money can buy.

So why is it the Liberal government buys the lesser kit, but pays more for it then the "best kit"?

ie. the S-92 buy over the EH-101

the MGS (deal to be) that will cost us in the ballpark of 700 million for 60 odd deathtraps, as opposed to a "Australian like purchase" of 60 odd M1A1 Abrams tanks for in the ballpark of 550 million.

the list goes on......

[takeanumber]

Well, I don't think anybody wanted to see the British/German axis get the contract.

I know I didn't.

Am I happy.

Nah. If Mulroney had have thought of the armed forces first instead of his friends, the forces would have had a great helicopter back then.

But that's the way it goes.

Now stop pretending like you care -- because you don't. The military is just a political football to the Cons. Always has been. Always will be.

[KrustyKidd]

Unless I am reading this wrong, both left and right here agree that this deal is crap and should've gone down in the Mulroony days, even if he was a crook.

Amazing, we all see the same here.

[Hugo]

Nah. If Mulroney had have thought of the armed forces first instead of his friends, the forces would have had a great helicopter back then.

Mulroney signed it and Chretien boycotted it, costing the taxpayer $500m in penalties. It also arguably cost 10 Canadian Forces personnel their lives. This was a Liberal foul-up, plain and simple.

[Stoker]

Well, I don't think anybody wanted to see the British/German axis get the contract.

I know I didn't.

Am I happy.

British and Italian...........and may I ask why?

Nah. If Mulroney had have thought of the armed forces first instead of his friends, the forces would have had a great helicopter back then.

But that's the way it goes.

As was said already.........he did sign the deal and during a period of détente.

Now stop pretending like you care -- because you don't. The military is just a political football to the Cons. Always has been. Always will be.

Who says that I don't care? Is this the same type of deal as your list of wife beaters?

[caesar]

from newer reports the British company was quietly disqualified before the final bid. The American firm was the only one left. The disqualifications are for reasons that no one will say????? May get interesting yet.

[Stoker]

from newer reports the British company was quietly disqualified before the final bid. The American firm was the only one left. The disqualifications are for reasons that no one will say????? May get interesting yet.

I too heard that..........I must say though, it doesn't suprise me and I kinda hope that AugstaWestland takes the Canadian government to the cleaners.

[Argus]

from newer reports the British company was quietly disqualified before the final bid. The American firm was the only one left. The disqualifications are for reasons that no one will say?????

Well, not sure what reason they will eventually give, but it's interesting to note that Sikorski's principal Canadian "partner" in the proposal has a large plant in the riding of the defence minister - the former defence minister, the one who helped make the decision, then got unexpectedly booted out in the election. Much of the work will be done there.

[Argus]

Well, I don't think anybody wanted to see the British/German axis get the contract.

Why? Plain bigotry?

Now stop pretending like you care -- because you don't.  The military is just a political football to the Cons.  Always has been.  Always will be.

I think you are mistaken in believing the shallow nature of your own thoughts and concerns should be taken as a measure of ours.

[Big Blue Machine]

I think Chretien shouldn't have cancelled the helicopters. I believe if we are going to have a military, we should but the best damn equipement, money can buy. Times 2

[Slavik44]

I think Chretien shouldn't have cancelled the helicopters. I believe if we are going to have a military, we should but the best damn equipement, money can buy. Times 2

I would rather see the money spent on health care then a millitary that will never be used.

[Stoker]

I would rather see the money spent on health care then a millitary that will never be used.

Go here and send a letter to the people overseas and explain to them how they are not being "used".......

[Slavik44]

I would rather see the money spent on health care then a millitary that will never be used.

Go here and send a letter to the people overseas and explain to them how they are not being "used".......

Sure as soon as you send an E-mail to the 20,000 canadain families that lost a loved one last year due to avoidable error in a hospital. In comparison to our education system, In comparison to are health care system, in comparison to are education system, in comparison to our police force, in comparison to our fire fighters, in comparison to our homeless shelters, and in comparison to our chartible organizations the millitary is not used. Yes the millitary needs fixed, but every thing related to government services needs to be fixed, so go ahead tell a homeless guy we needed 50 helicopters more then he needed addiction counseling, clothes and a safe palce to live, tell a dead guy that we needed 50 helicopters more then he needed a doctor, tell a starving child how we needed 50 helicopters more then he needed food. Yea the millitary needs help, but 50 helicopters isn't the help it needed. What the millitary really needs is another 10,000 troops that we can deploy around the world to help people. 50 helicopters is not what it needed, are army is so overused that it can not be of use. which is the same thing that can be said for any other Canadian service, over used and underfunded. When you compare the millitary to health care it simply does not get the same kind of use.