Do people have the right to be racist?

[cybercoma]

If you're threatening, harassing, or otherwise condemning an entire race, ethnicity, culture, or religion as inferior, then you certainly don't have that right. There are laws against harassment and threatening people. Claiming some sort of cultural, ethnic, or racial superiority is a logical fallacy that racists and bigots can't seem to get their head around. There is as much, if not more, variation within races, cultures, and ethnicities, heck even in religions, as there is between them. Moderate fill in the blank are closer to other moderates of a different fill in the blank than either of them are to their extremist, fanatical, or ultra-conservative counterparts. This is why all of those broad sweeping criticisms and insults just don't make sense and are completely fallacious.

[PlayItLoud]

What if that person with the "hurt feelings" ends up commiting suicide?

I believe there have been several recent cases involving the internet and people from alternative lifestyles.I am not sure of all the details of the different cases but I believe criminal charges have been layed and I believe successfully convicted.

WWWTT

So you're going to hold someone responsible for the acitons of other person? What you do after hearing what I say is not my responsibility. You don't have the right not to be offended.

That being said, I am against hate publicized speech against specific individuals that have nothing to do with the public.

[PlayItLoud]

If you're threatening, harassing, or otherwise condemning an entire race, ethnicity, culture, or religion as inferior, then you certainly don't have that right. There are laws against harassment and threatening people. Claiming some sort of cultural, ethnic, or racial superiority is a logical fallacy that racists and bigots can't seem to get their head around. There is as much, if not more, variation within races, cultures, and ethnicities, heck even in religions, as there is between them. Moderate fill in the blank are closer to other moderates of a different fill in the blank than either of them are to their extremist, fanatical, or ultra-conservative counterparts. This is why all of those broad sweeping criticisms and insults just don't make sense and are completely fallacious.

I'm not asking if it's logical or not, just whether or not it should legal. Using your logic, we should make it illegal to say 1+1=3

[cybercoma]

So you're going to hold someone responsible for the acitons of other person?

If you convince someone to go kill another person, it's a crime. Why should it not be a crime to convince people to kill themselves?

[cybercoma]

I'm not asking if it's logical or not, just whether or not it should legal. Using your logic, we should make it illegal to say 1+1=3

The logic part had nothing to do with the first part where I said harassing and threatening people is not a right. The logic part was an extension of, not only do you not have the right, but you're a moron to hold those beliefs.

[monty16]

I don't think so; the law isn't against "hateful" speech but speech that incites hatred. As I understand it, saying 'I hate whites, Muslims, Christians, etc.' isn't against the law but inciting others, encouraging others to hate, is. I would think the source I cited would back that up.

I believe people have the right to say what's on their mind.

We can always depend on you to take both sides of an issue. You're just so wonderfully ditzy on everything!

[Moonlight Graham]

I dont see a way around having these kind of laws. They didnt just get written in a vacuum, they exist because we have a rich history of persecuting various diferent ethnic minorities. Allowing it would basically allow political campaigns to be organized against various minorities. The people that incited and spread hatred against german jews before world war one were excersizing "free speech" as well.

Persecuting means taking an action against someone. If you don't hire someone based on race, or don't let someone in your restaurant based on race etc., then that is much different than speaking "hatefully" towards someone based on race.

Hate speech doesn't really harm anyone. I would say verbally harassing someone, no matter if it is due to race or gender or due to them being fat or ugly etc., is different and should be illegal. But expressing your views toward a group of people is, in itself, not harmful. They are only words, and unless those words turn into threats or specific harassment of individuals, then "hate speech" is harmless.

Yes, it may incite more people to be hateful, but these days it seems racists attract other racists within their own little niche groups and most people know they are idiots and simply ignore it.

Hatred against Jews re: Germany, well, was there anything truly harmful with such hate speech? Did it really harm anyone? It was only until people and the state starting acting in hateful (and what our laws say are illegal) ways towards Jews was great harm really done. We must separate words from actions. Sticks and stones...

[cybercoma]

The hate speech rationalized and garnered support for the actions that were taken later. While it might seem as though "speech" has no effect, it really does. Otherwise, companies wouldn't spend billions of dollars speaking to customers through advertising. Speech is used to convince and persuade. Threats and harassment can be nothing more than speech. You're not allowed to utter a death threat about anyone because of the actions that could potentially come out of that and because it causes someone else to live in fear. Hate-speech causes an entire segment of society to live in fear, rather than just targeting an individual, and could create the potential for violence to come out of it.

Now, I'm not suggesting that hate-speech should be a major crime up there with murdering someone, but it should be handled in much the same way as threatening and harassing someone else is. Death threats have a particular charge and making "harassing" phone calls to someone is a separate charge. Depending on the form the hate-speech takes, it should be handled as broadly as those other charges.

Edited December 31, 2011 by cybercoma

[PlayItLoud]

If you convince someone to go kill another person, it's a crime. Why should it not be a crime to convince people to kill themselves?

Because that's not what hate speech is. If John says homosexuals in general are disgusting and Bob hears about this and gets so offended by that he decides to jump off a bridge, how did John say anything that convinced them to kill themselves?

And convincing someone to kill another person is abetting them in committing a crime. In order for you to convince someone to kill themselves, you'd have to be speaking to them on a personal level. For example, John would say that Bob specifically lives a disgusting lifestyle and should go kill himself.

[PlayItLoud]

And you're all acting as if the only people capable of speech are the ones making the hateful speeches.

[sharkman]

What kind of mind does hate speech come from? Someone who hates in his/her heart. That hate can not be prosecuted because it hasn't yet brought forth an act of hate. I wonder what causes this hatred of race, creed or religion? I think it can ruin the life of the hater.

[Guest American Woman]

What kind of mind does hate speech come from? Someone who hates in his/her heart. That hate can not be prosecuted because it hasn't yet brought forth an act of hate. I wonder what causes this hatred of race, creed or religion? I think it can ruin the life of the hater.

I agree with you totally about hatred ruining the life of the hater; ultimately I think they bring much more harm to themselves than to those they hate.

In Canada, as i understand it, the hate can be prosecuted if the hater seeks to incite hatred in others since that is more than 'just words,' it is an action.

[Scotty]

What if that person with the "hurt feelings" ends up commiting suicide?

I believe there have been several recent cases involving the internet and people from alternative lifestyles.I am not sure of all the details of the different cases but I believe criminal charges have been layed and I believe successfully convicted.

WWWTT

Suicide is generally the product of emotional instability. I don't believe we can hold others to legal fault for actions which lead to such an end. We can castigate them for their lack of morality, but merely being rude and offensive to someone, much less a group of someones, cannot lead to charges.

[Scotty]

This is a false statement.

Hatefull speech must be censored in order to "protect" constitutional rights!

I thought at first you were being ironic, but you're serious, aren't you?

[WWWTT]

So you're going to hold someone responsible for the acitons of other person? What you do after hearing what I say is not my responsibility. You don't have the right not to be offended.

This aswell is a false statement.

People have been successfully convicted for encouraging others to commit suicide over the internet.

If you choose not to believe me thats your choice.

But beware if you are thinking of doing anything like this!

WWWTT

[Guest American Woman]

People have been successfully convicted for encouraging others to commit suicide over the internet.

Sources? I've never heard of any such conviction. I've never heard of any such charge.

[PlayItLoud]

This aswell is a false statement.

People have been successfully convicted for encouraging others to commit suicide over the internet.

If you choose not to believe me thats your choice.

But beware if you are thinking of doing anything like this!

WWWTT

That's directly telling someone to commit suicide. Hate speech isn't necessarily that.

Take this for example, if I tell a woman that her husband is cheating on her and she decides to kill him for it, why should I be responsible for how she reacted to that information? (Assuming it's true) Same goes with hate speech. If you get so offended by hate speech that you decide to kill yourself, you can't hold the person who said it responsible for your own actions.

What's next? Charging a boss for murder of a man who commits suicide for having too much stress from work?

[WWWTT]

Sources? I've never heard of any such conviction. I've never heard of any such charge.

Ok I believe there was someone in Canada whom committed suicide with some connection from a male nurse from midwestern US.I believe the authorities here in Canada did try to have the individual extradite to Canada but the police in the US disagreed or something like that.However recently he was sent here.

Another recent case would be about a university student whom committed suicide.(actually there may be a couple of different cases involving alternative lifestyle university/school students)

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

I thought at first you were being ironic, but you're serious, aren't you?

You know who else is serious?

Countless judges,politicians,lawyers and tens of thousands of people!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

That's directly telling someone to commit suicide. Hate speech isn't necessarily that.

Take this for example, if I tell a woman that her husband is cheating on her and she decides to kill him for it, why should I be responsible for how she reacted to that information? (Assuming it's true) Same goes with hate speech. If you get so offended by hate speech that you decide to kill yourself, you can't hold the person who said it responsible for your own actions.

What's next? Charging a boss for murder of a man who commits suicide for having too much stress from work?

Your all over the road here man.

Your lumping a bunch of different scenarios together thinking that somehow they are are the same thing or should all be treated equally.

WWWTT

[Guest American Woman]

Ok I believe there was someone in Canada whom committed suicide with some connection from a male nurse from midwestern US.I believe the authorities here in Canada did try to have the individual extradite to Canada but the police in the US disagreed or something like that.However recently he was sent here.

Another recent case would be about a university student whom committed suicide.(actually there may be a couple of different cases involving alternative lifestyle university/school students)

So you're speaking of people who specifically are incited/encouraged to commit suicide, not someone's hateful words leading them to suicide.

[WWWTT]

So you're speaking of people who specifically are incited/encouraged to commit suicide, not someone's hateful words leading them to suicide.

I am not sure of the exact dialogue between the individuals so I am sorry I can not further clarify.

I wouldn't engage in openly critisizing someones sexual orientation,religion,age,sex,color etc etc. and I do not understand why some people feel it is neccessary to do so?I strongly believe this is hurtfull and absolutely nothing productfull can come out of it.After all sexuall orientation,age,color,religion,sex and so on are all protected in the constitution.So why would I defend someone who wishes to engage in attacking individuals as opposed to the constitution,or even those who attack the constitution?

WWWTT

[Scotty]

You know who else is serious?

Countless judges,politicians,lawyers and tens of thousands of people!

WWWTT

Okay, why don't you tell us what 'constitutional right' you think you're protecting by interfering with people's freedom of speech.

[WWWTT]

Okay, why don't you tell us what 'constitutional right' you think you're protecting by interfering with people's freedom of speech.

There are a number of constitutional rights that can be jeopardized by hate speech/propaganda.

This topic is involved and requires great thought and time to articulate and I must be practising and learning Mandarin so maybe someone else can pick up for me?

Thanx

Happy new year/Xin nian kuai le!

WWWTT

[Moonlight Graham]

While it might seem as though "speech" has no effect, it really does. Otherwise, companies wouldn't spend billions of dollars speaking to customers through advertising. Speech is used to convince and persuade.

That's a great point. That's probably the best argument for why it should be illegal. Hate speech is not directly harmful, but it spreads hatred, and hateful thinking (itself harmless) leads to hateful acts.