For or against long gun registry?

[eyeball]

As we initially brought up the recent RCMP shooting, I still do not want to totally drag this event into the political mud, but they were exercising a search warrant for a .45ACP…….This obviously would not fall under the purview of the LGR, and it’s unfortunate that two police officers were shot, but in this instance, with prior knowledge of a restricted firearm on the premises, something obviously failed these officers…..

In this situation, like the Mayerthorpe tragedy, police officers were shot/killed and in both these instances, the LGR would not have prevented the crimes committed……..What failed the RCMP, in both cases, was a lack of training and/or procedure……

I get the sense that what also may have failed the police in this case was the politics of gun freedom.

...others in Sedgewick paint a different picture of Brad Clarke, describing him as an imposing man with “attitude,” who always carried a handgun on his hip.

Read more: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Small+town+neighbours+talk+reclusive+family+centre+media+storm/6123335/story.html#ixzz1mDeWMOH6

[Guest Derek L]

I get the sense that what also may have failed the police in this case was the politics of gun freedom.

Funny how you bring up the one negative quote from “unnamed sources”, but fail to mention all the remaining ones that paint the suspect in a positive or neutral light, well giving their names……

Allyn Bonnett said he doesn’t believe the family, or his friend Brad, could have been involved.

“Knowing his folks and knowing him, it just doesn’t fit the bill,” said Bonnett, who described Clarke as quiet, polite, and pleasant.

“If I’d have seen him with a gun in his hands, I still would have gone to talk to him.”

Sedgewick Mayor Helen Whitten said she has known the Clarke family all her life.

“My heart goes out to the wounded, to the Mounties and their families, and, honestly, it goes out to everyone involved,” she said. “I’m really concerned about the Clarke family, the extended family.”

Debbie Swainson, a close neighbour of the Clarkes, said she rarely sees them away from their property, and hasn’t seen Brad Clarke for several years.

“You may meet them on the road, but, you know, it doesn’t happen that often,” she said.

[eyeball]

Your opinion is noted…….When to you expect the coming deluge of deaths associated with the LGR demise? 3 months after? 3 years? 30 years?

I don't think it will be a deluge or that the demise of the LGR will have much if anything to do with it.

I do think however there will be an increase in gun deaths due to mental illness, because there is going to be more mental illness in the future and probably more guns too.

[Guest Derek L]

I don't think it will be a deluge or that the demise of the LGR will have much if anything to do with it.

I do think however there will be an increase in gun deaths due to mental illness, because there is going to be more mental illness in the future and probably more guns too.

That’s an opinion that you’re certainly entitled to, but like all other forms of illness, with modern advancements in medicine and/or treatments, isn’t it reasonable to also assume that your concern with a potential increase in instances of said illnesses as the baby boomers age could also be countered with modern and future advancements?

As a personal observation, I spent this morning at a gun show (a monthly occurrence) in Burnaby that’s put on by a club I belong to……..Now this said club is predominantly made up of seniors, with a likely average age of 70-75 (It would probably be higher if not for my small group of “youngsters” in our late 40s).

Now many of these seniors are veterans of WW II (getting fewer) and Korea, both obviously life changing events, that a reasonable person could assume could play on ones mental health…………The reason I bring this up is that my personal observations with these older folks (and admittedly I’m not a trained professional) I’d question if any suffer from any form of mental illness (aside from how they price their rifles!!)

What makes you feel our generation (Baby Boomers)will see such a drastic increase in mental illness? When contrasted with the previous generation, there has been no major life changing events on par with WW II or Korea that our generation was forced to endure…….So why do you think there will be a sudden increase?

[eyeball]

Funny how you bring up the one negative quote from “unnamed sources”, but fail to mention all the remaining ones that paint the suspect in a positive or neutral light, well giving their names……

Folks around Killam also seem pretty gun-neutral if not friendly.

Clarke would often shoot on Sundays, and the gunshots could be heard echoing across the rolling fields

Then there's this story.

The manhunt ended peacefully before the sun came up, but RCMP are still searching for a truck last seen leaving the scene of this week’s police shooting — a black Silverado they think may be filled with weapons.

Sawyer Clarke Robison, 27, was arrested at 5 a.m. Friday on a country road within 15 kilometres of the farm where two RCMP officers were shot Tuesday.

Robison was unarmed.

“We cannot locate the truck. We cannot locate the weapons,” said RCMP spokesman Sgt. Patrick Webb. “We’re not saying it’s rigged in any way. That’s the fear. We want to err on the side of caution.”

So the search continues for a three-door 2000 Chevrolet Silverado with licence plate UZE 545.

Police are asking anyone who lives within a 100 kilometre radius of Killam to check abandoned buildings and wooded areas on their property. If someone finds the truck, RCMP say it could be dangerous to open the doors.

Read more: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/Killam+residents+relieved+after+arrest+charged+with+attempted+murder+RCMP+officers/6133093/story.html#ixzz1mDkhyzzl

The trickle of details seems to mirror the trickle of breaks the police are getting in terms of getting to the bottom of whatever it is they've gotten themselves into. I can't shake the sense the police tried to take on someone with really strong feelings towards uncontrolled and unrestrained gun ownership. You were just asking how many deaths might be associated with the demise of the LGR, perhaps Brad Clarke's feelings towards the state taking his guns away were emboldened by just that very thing and now he's dead.

What appears to be a strained relationship between police and Albertan's in general is at odds with the respect for law and order you'd normally associate with such a conservative place. Gun ownership might be another growing sore point.

[Guest Derek L]

Folks around Killam also seem pretty gun-neutral if not friendly.

Then there's this story.

The trickle of details seems to mirror the trickle of breaks the police are getting in terms of getting to the bottom of whatever it is they've gotten themselves into. I can't shake the sense the police tried to take on someone with really strong feelings towards uncontrolled and unrestrained gun ownership. You were just asking how many deaths might be associated with the demise of the LGR, perhaps Brad Clarke's feelings towards the state taking his guns away were emboldened by just that very thing and now he's dead.

What appears to be a strained relationship between police and Albertan's in general is at odds with the respect for law and order you'd normally associate with such a conservative place. Gun ownership might be another growing sore point.

I think you’re blurring the lines here. Yes, us Conservative folk tend to be gun friendly and respectful of law enforcement, but we also tend to favour self reliance and other Libertarian ethos……..

As for this case, you’re simply speculating, you nor I know all the facts…….speculation leads to assumptions, assumptions lead to prejudice etc………This is not an Alberta or Conservative thing.

[eyeball]

That’s an opinion that you’re certainly entitled to, but like all other forms of illness, with modern advancements in medicine and/or treatments, isn’t it reasonable to also assume that your concern with a potential increase in instances of said illnesses as the baby boomers age could also be countered with modern and future advancements?

Sure, assuming people actually go seek attention when they start feeling ill, but there's the rub, many don't.

As a personal observation, I spent this morning at a gun show (a monthly occurrence) in Burnaby that’s put on by a club I belong to……..Now this said club is predominantly made up of seniors, with a likely average age of 70-75 (It would probably be higher if not for my small group of “youngsters” in our late 40s).

Now many of these seniors are veterans of WW II (getting fewer) and Korea, both obviously life changing events, that a reasonable person could assume could play on ones mental health…………The reason I bring this up is that my personal observations with these older folks (and admittedly I’m not a trained professional) I’d question if any suffer from any form of mental illness (aside from how they price their rifles!!)

What makes you feel our generation (Baby Boomers)will see such a drastic increase in mental illness? When contrasted with the previous generation, there has been no major life changing events on par with WW II or Korea that our generation was forced to endure…….So why do you think there will be a sudden increase?

The opinions of medical experts who say there is an epidemic of age-onset dementia coming - not suddenly but gradually and peaking around 15 to 20 years from now.

If mental illness really isn't or shouldn't be an issue at all with regards to gun control then I'd say lets drop it, but if or when someone who is ill does hurt someone and the topic shifts to locking the sick bastard up because he's a criminal, then I'm afraid I'm going to have an issue with it because sick people need treatment, not punishment. Punishing them just hurts the larger issue of addressing mental illness and bring it out of the shadows. Inconveniencing gun owners with better controls is worth the cost if it helps us do that. Resisting them has, I think, only made things worse.

Edited February 13, 2012 by eyeball

[Guest Derek L]

Sure, assuming people actually go seek attention when they start feeling ill, but there's the rub, many don't.

The opinions of medical experts who say there is an epidemic of age-onset dementia coming - not suddenly but gradually and peaking around 15 to 20 years from now.

If mental illness really isn't or shouldn't be an issue at all with regards to gun control then I'd say lets drop it, but if or when someone who is ill does hurt someone and the topic shifts to locking the sick bastard up because he's a criminal, then I'm afraid I'm going to have an issue with it because sick people need treatment, not punishment. Punishing them just hurts the larger issue of addressing mental illness and bring it out of the shadows. Inconveniencing gun owners with better controls is worth the cost if it helps us do that. Resisting them has, I think, only made things worse.

I don’t mean to make light of your concerns over mental illness, but wouldn’t it stand to reason with your cited future epidemic, that we would have more to fear than just aging baby boomers with guns? What about car owners and gas appliances? I mean a greater percentage of baby boomers own vehicles and stoves that could be potentially left on (thus causing a fire) than firearms……..Or what if they forget to take blood pressure medicine? Insulin? Feed their pets? Etc

Perhaps all these potential concerns could be addressed with mandatory doctor check-ups and forced hospitalization for those inflicted with the disease? I’m sure seniors would be willing to comply and vote for the political party that suggested such measures……

[eyeball]

I don’t mean to make light of your concerns over mental illness, but wouldn’t it stand to reason with your cited future epidemic, that we would have more to fear than just aging baby boomers with guns? What about car owners and gas appliances? I mean a greater percentage of baby boomers own vehicles and stoves that could be potentially left on (thus causing a fire) than firearms……..Or what if they forget to take blood pressure medicine? Insulin? Feed their pets? Etc

As a matter of fact I do think we have a lot to fear given how little concern there really is for mental illness in our society.

Perhaps all these potential concerns could be addressed with mandatory doctor check-ups and forced hospitalization for those inflicted with the disease? I’m sure seniors would be willing to comply and vote for the political party that suggested such measures……

You don't think it would be easier to just wait until people do something they can't control label them as criminals and lock them up? I'm sure seniors will vote for whoever scares them into concluding crime is the issue.

[Guest Derek L]

As a matter of fact I do think we have a lot to fear given how little concern there really is for mental illness in our society.

You don't think it would be easier to just wait until people do something they can't control label them as criminals and lock them up? I'm sure seniors will vote for whoever scares them into concluding crime is the issue.

I doubt seniors would want to be treated like children because they might develop a mental illness………That's just me though I guess......

How many licensed seniors have injured themselves or others with their legal firearms due to a mental illness?

Edited February 13, 2012 by Derek L

[Shakeyhands]

I think you’re blurring the lines here. Yes, us Conservative folk tend to be gun friendly and respectful of law enforcement, but we also tend to favour self reliance and other Libertarian ethos……..

As for this case, you’re simply speculating, you nor I know all the facts…….speculation leads to assumptions, assumptions lead to prejudice etc………This is not an Alberta or Conservative thing.

The lines are blurred, one not be either from Alberta nor Conservative to enjoy their hunting heritage and have a love for guns.

[Guest Derek L]

The lines are blurred, one not be either from Alberta nor Conservative to enjoy their hunting heritage and have a love for guns.

Exactly , my brother in law is a high school teacher, a big mucky muck in the BCTF and a provincial and federal NDP party member……..Hates the registry, and though a lousy shot, loves going hunting and target shooting…….I think it’s ultimately a division on how one was raised and taught about firearms in general from an early age……..I’d rather my son learn the safe handling and shooting practices with his SR-22, than spend hours playing violent, shooting simulator video games……..

[eyeball]

I doubt seniors would want to be treated like children because they might develop a mental illness………That's just me though I guess......

You think they'll like being thrown in jail if they do? I don't see very much talk of building hospitals.

How many licensed seniors have injured themselves or others with their legal firearms due to a mental illness?

There's not much data which seems to be a common theme. Most jurisdictions I've read about recognize they don't have the data they need and are trying to gather more. Most studies appear to focus on younger people but there is definitely some concern over the number of guns and the increasing population of older gun owners.

Here are two studies for what it's worth, which is next to nothing I suppose. The rates for homicide amongst older people is about the same as for younger but seniors appear more likely to commit suicide with a gun.

http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_44/iss_3/JFSCH16.pdf

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/ficap/research/docs/Cheney%20-%20Firearms%20and%20Violence%20Issues%20for%20Elder%20Health%20and%20Well-Being%20in%20SE%20PA.pdf

In any case Alzheimer's Disease is just but one form of mental illness.

Edited February 13, 2012 by eyeball

[Guest Derek L]

You think they'll like being thrown in jail if they do? I don't see very much talk of building hospitals.

There's not much data which seems to be a common theme, jurisdictions don't collect data in that manner and most studies appear to focus on younger people but there is definitely some concern over the number of guns and the increasing population of older gun owners. Here are two studies for what it's worth, which is next to nothing I suppose.

http://library-resources.cqu.edu.au/JFS/PDF/vol_44/iss_3/JFSCH16.pdf

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/ficap/research/docs/Cheney%20-%20Firearms%20and%20Violence%20Issues%20for%20Elder%20Health%20and%20Well-Being%20in%20SE%20PA.pdf

In any case Alzheimer's Disease is just but one form of mental illness.

Your first link’s case study looks to be a man that suffered mental illness from a younger age (Child Molester and absentee father), though certainly a compelling storey, all it does is demonstrate the possibility………..

The second link demonstrates that over a three year period, ~140 seniors killed themselves in the greater Philadelphia area…….Where the data is flawed is that it doesn’t list the number of seniors within that area to ascertain a percentage to see if this is an overall trend. Nor does clearly state if all these seniors suffered from a long term mental illness……..We don’t know if perhaps they suffered from a terminal illness like cancer or had lost a spouse, if anything it could be a case for Doctor assisted suicide.

[Tilter]

I don’t mean to make light of your concerns over mental illness, but wouldn’t it stand to reason with your cited future epidemic, that we would have more to fear than just aging baby boomers with guns? What about car owners and gas appliances? I mean a greater percentage of baby boomers own vehicles and stoves that could be potentially left on (thus causing a fire) than firearms……..Or what if they forget to take blood pressure medicine? Insulin? Feed their pets? Etc

Perhaps all these potential concerns could be addressed with mandatory doctor check-ups and forced hospitalization for those inflicted with the disease? I’m sure seniors would be willing to comply and vote for the political party that suggested such measures……

as a senior senior I suggest that that

seniors would be willing to comply and vote for the political party that suggested such measures……

as long as the wait for these things does not exceed 12 hours in the ER, a feat which NO Canadian political party or government is or ever will be capable of accomplishing.

[Guest Derek L]

Two NDP members just voted with the (Rafferty & Hyer?) Government on killing the registry…….wonder if they truly will be “punished” as per Nicole Turmel?

[olpfan1]

Two NDP members just voted with the (Rafferty & Hyer?) Government on killing the registry…….wonder if they truly will be “punished” as per Nicole Turmel?

if they get punished they will forever lose my vote

[Guest Derek L]

Two New Democrats side with Tories on final gun-registry vote

The Conservatives used their majority to pass the bill by a vote of 159-130, with the support of maverick New Democrats Bruce Hyer and John Rafferty.

Last chance to heed rural constituents on gun registry, Tories tell NDP

“Our party is really clear. We’ll vote against this motion,” Interim NDP Leader Nycole Turmel said at a news conference, adding there will be “consequences” for MPs who don’t follow the party line. “We’ll see after the vote.”

[jbg]

Two NDP members just voted with the (Rafferty & Hyer?) Government on killing the registry…….wonder if they truly will be “punished” as per Nicole Turmel?

if they get punished they will forever lose my vote

And mine as well. And I won't renew my NDP membership.

[Sa'adoni]

And mine as well. And I won't renew my NDP membership.

since when do americans have memebership in Canadian political parties?

[bush_cheney2004]

since when do americans have memebership in Canadian political parties?

See "Elizabeth May"

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11892

[jbg]

since when do americans have memebership in Canadian political parties?

No one has "memebership" in a Canadian political party.