Guest American Woman Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Yes, I do. That's been my entire point all along. Our society is sexist. No, my point is that YOU are sexist. "Society" isn't telling me any such thing - YOU are. Screw you! How DARE you say that this is MY belief in women. You're the one telling me this is how women are viewed. You are the one insisting that this is what women's worth is based on and what women's self value is based on. This is how SOCIETY treats women and it's absolutely disgusting that you're so brainwashed by it that you have the audacity to say that this is MY BELIEF because I'm pointing out the oppression. This is really rich. I'm a woman, I know how society treats me, I know what I value most in myself, but because I don't see myself, or my daughters, or my sisters, or my friends, etc. being treated the way you claim society treats us, or placing their value on their looks, I am brainwashed. I'm so brainwashed that I myself don't know how I'm being treated, what I am valued for, what I place my own value on myself on. While you, on the other hand, DO know how I'm being treated, what I've valued for, and what I value in myself. You are speaking for yourself in your responses to me when you insist I am wrong in how I feel I am treated and what I am valued for and what I place my value on. It is your belief that this is how society treats women, treats ME, and since you don't feel that way yourself according to your outrage - NEWSFLASH - you aren't the only one. You are, however, the one insisting that I, as a woman, am only valued for my looks, that my value in myself is based on my looks, and if I don't realize it, if I don't believe you, I have the added insult of being brainwashed. That is YOUR viewpoint, and it's sexist. But, how dare you say that these are MY VIEWS. I'm the one trying to draw attention to how the media and society "treats women like $#!+" as Margaret Cho says in the video above. They are your viewpoints. "Society" isn't the one trying to convince me that women are oppressed, only valued for their looks, YOU ARE. Society isn't telling me that if I don't feel oppressed, if I think I am valued for more than my looks, I am brainwashed. YOU ARE. Try as you like to blame someone else, but YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING IT; the one arguing with me when I say I don't feel that way and you are the one not accepting that I don't feel that way - ie: you are the one insisting that the way I feel about how I am treated is wrong - that I am wrong if I don't realize that society only values me for my looks, that I am wrong when I say I don't place my value on my looks. You sit there trying to convince me that my only worth in society is my looks and then have the gall to be offended when I call you on it. :angry: Edited December 14, 2011 by American Woman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 I'd prefer we limit religious minorities who bring their baggage here with them and expect us to accommodate their backwards views But the backward views of the religious majority are acceptable? A key element of a democracy is the accomodation and protection of minorities, no matter how stupid their practices seem to the rest. I do not at all like niqāb; but, akin to the notion of "I disagree with what you're saying but will defend to the death your right to say it", I don't believe the state should be singling the niqāb out and banning it. Conversely, the state should also not be forbidding people - through either law, coersive tactics, or a combination of the two (political correctness, human rights commissions) - from criticising the practice of wearing niqāb. If the freedom of choice and rights enjoyed by the majority are as superior as we think they are, women who wear niqāb, or at least their daughters who might be expected by men around them to also put on that garb, should be attracted to the majority, and the protection it affords them, and gradually merge themselves into it; the minority who continue to wear niqāb remaining a minority. No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) No, my point is that YOU are sexist. "Society" isn't telling me any such thing - YOU are. You're the one telling me this is how women are viewed. You are the one insisting that this is what women's worth is based on and what women's self value is based on. This is really rich. I'm a woman, I know how society treats me, I know what I value most in myself, but because I don't see myself, or my daughters, or my sisters, or my friends, etc. being treated the way you claim society treats us, or placing their value on their looks, I am brainwashed. I'm so brainwashed that I myself don't know how I'm being treated, what I am valued for, what I place my own value on myself on. While you, on the other hand, DO know how I'm being treated, what I've valued for, and what I value in myself. You are speaking for yourself in your responses to me when you insist I am wrong in how I feel I am treated and what I am valued for and what I place my value on. It is your belief that this is how society treats women, treats ME, and since you don't feel that way yourself according to your outrage - NEWSFLASH - you aren't the only one. You are, however, the one insisting that I, as a woman, am only valued for my looks, that my value in myself is based on my looks, and if I don't realize it, if I don't believe you, I have the added insult of being brainwashed. That is YOUR viewpoint, and it's sexist. They are your viewpoints. "Society" isn't the one trying to convince me that women are oppressed, only valued for their looks, YOU ARE. Society isn't telling me that if I don't feel oppressed, if I think I am valued for more than my looks, I am brainwashed. YOU ARE. Try as you like to blame someone else, but YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING IT; the one arguing with me when I say I don't feel that way and you are the one not accepting that I don't feel that way - ie: you are the one insisting that the way I feel about how I am treated is wrong - that I am wrong if I don't realize that society only values me for my looks, that I am wrong when I say I don't place my value on my looks. You sit there trying to convince me that my only worth in society is my looks and then have the gall to be offended when I call you on it. :angry: If all of the evidence that I've shown you isn't good enough, and it usually isn't with you, then there's not much else I can tell you. Every one of the lead feminist scholars agree with what I'm saying. You obviously didn't bother watching the brief 8min trialer for Miss Representation, which is a 2 hour documentary detailing exactly how this is happening. If you want to keep the wool pulled over your eyes that's prerogative. But don't you dare tell me that these are my views! You're not a sexist misogynist because you point out that "Muslim culture", whatever that may be, is oppressive towards women? You are, however, quite possibly a female misogynist for trying to shut me down for pointing out something that is empirically verifiable. I'm pointing out to a serious wrong that is being perpetrated against women in our society and you have the nerve to tell me that I'm the sexist for CHALLENGING these ideas. People like you that support these ideas by sweeping them under the rug, ideas that I've provided clear evidence to that points to its existence, and trying to stop people from drawing attention to them absolutely disgust me. It's women like you that keep women in our society oppressed by refusing to acknowledge the evidence that rights infront of your face! Shame on you for undoing the work of all the great women that are organizing right now to put a stop to this culture! Here's a link to a ton of resources. Do yourself and your daughters a favour and educate yourself. Because it's sexist women like you that support our misogynist society. http://missrepresentation.org/resources/ Edited December 14, 2011 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Jennifer's interview starts at 2:50. The first few minutes are excerpts from the 8 minute trailer I posted above. But you won't watch that either because this is how discussions go with you. You take a position. Someone proves you wrong with a mountain of evidence. Then you tell them that they're not listening to you and they're wrong because your completely unfounded opinions say so. Edited December 14, 2011 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 But the backward views of the religious majority are acceptable? A key element of a democracy is the accomodation and protection of minorities, no matter how stupid their practices seem to the rest. I do not at all like niqāb; but, akin to the notion of "I disagree with what you're saying but will defend to the death your right to say it", I don't believe the state should be singling the niqāb out and banning it. Conversely, the state should also not be forbidding people - through either law, coersive tactics, or a combination of the two (political correctness, human rights commissions) - from criticising the practice of wearing niqāb. If the freedom of choice and rights enjoyed by the majority are as superior as we think they are, women who wear niqāb, or at least their daughters who might be expected by men around them to also put on that garb, should be attracted to the majority, and the protection it affords them, and gradually merge themselves into it; the minority who continue to wear niqāb remaining a minority. No? That would work if their parents (with middle eastern mindset) allow them to date men from a different culture and that is something i never see when im in the big cities its always muslim women with muslim men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 That would work if their parents (with middle eastern mindset) allow them to date men from a different culture We all eventually move beyond our parents' control; and Canada's society makes it easier to do so than in the backward parts of the Middle East and South Asia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) We all eventually move beyond our parents' control; and Canada's society makes it easier to do so than in the backward parts of the Middle East and South Asia. the thing is its harder for muslim women to follow their heart because either the men in her family turn violent or you're shamed dating a man with another religion is about the worst thing that a muslim woman could do Edited December 14, 2011 by olp1fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilter Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Well South Africa is certainly far from a paradise…..Let’s not mince words, post-Apartheid, South Africa has seen a devastating “brain drain” of white professionals (My Wife and her family included) that has affected the nation in a negative way…. Obviously, the results of the ‘94 election swung the pendulum to the far opposite extreme of what was South Africa prior….This is further evidence to my opinion, that one small group controlling a much larger group and then the roles reversed suddenly, can have a negative impact on any society……. Why stick around around to be shit upon. The de-civilization of the African Continent is well under way & with the help of Islam, will descend into an 8th century morass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilter Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 so true if you think of the reformers controlling and merging with the PC! cons have certainly had a negative impact on canada other than doing a few things right like getting out of kyoto, scraping the long gun and banning the niqsb during citizenship ceremonies OK--- you pointed out the Positive aspects of the present Canadian government but you mentioned Negatives - give us an example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tilter Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 But the backward views of the religious majority are acceptable? A key element of a democracy is the accomodation and protection of minorities, no matter how stupid their practices seem to the rest. I do not at all like niqāb; but, akin to the notion of "I disagree with what you're saying but will defend to the death your right to say it", I don't believe the state should be singling the niqāb out and banning it. Conversely, the state should also not be forbidding people - through either law, coersive tactics, or a combination of the two (political correctness, human rights commissions) - from criticising the practice of wearing niqāb. If the freedom of choice and rights enjoyed by the majority are as superior as we think they are, women who wear niqāb, or at least their daughters who might be expected by men around them to also put on that garb, should be attracted to the majority, and the protection it affords them, and gradually merge themselves into it; the minority who continue to wear niqāb remaining a minority. No? An example of the bad side of niqabs in our society would be ---- A guy in a niqab concealing his face, a pistol and an assault rifle walks into a bank & robs it--- a far fetched example--- No - it has already happened and if our laws permit people to walk around in a disguise it'll happen again Do we really have to be that politically correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 OK--- you pointed out the Positive aspects of the present Canadian government but you mentioned Negatives - give us an example negatives? My biggest one is Harper does not punish his MPs when they get caught and when he does punish them no one knows why (Helen Guergis) Harps defends them too even when caught in their lies! His government shuts down debates/ goes in camera often I'm okay with some of the crime bill but NOT with mandatory prison time for Marijuanna Trying to shut inSite down when evidence shown it helped Union busting private companies Is that enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 the thing is its harder for muslim women to follow their heart because either the men in her family turn violent or you're shamed Certainly, it might be harder for some Muslim women. But, hard doesn't mean impossible, and it's certainly much, much easier here than in countries or parts of countries where cultural practices like requiring women to wear niqāb are either law or essentially law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Certainly, it might be harder for some Muslim women. But, hard doesn't mean impossible, and it's certainly much, much easier here than in countries or parts of countries where cultural practices like requiring women to wear niqāb are either law or essentially law. I agree with that and everything but to come here we should let them know that they cannot run their daughters lives Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 An example of the bad side of niqabs in our society would be ---- A guy in a niqab concealing his face, a pistol and an assault rifle walks into a bank & robs it--- a far fetched example--- No - it has already happened and if our laws permit people to walk around in a disguise it'll happen again So, you're asking for a ban on face coverings of any and all kinds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 [W]e should let them know that they cannot run their daughters lives Beyond the age of 18, yes, exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) Beyond the age of 18, yes, exactly. Yeah... we should also make arranged marriages illegal Asians, Arabs they all do this and its totally uncanadian Edited December 14, 2011 by olp1fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 it has already happened and if our laws permit people to walk around in a disguise it'll happen again Do we really have to be that politically correct? Could you cite that law that forbids this for us please? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 I agree with that and everything but to come here we should let them know that they cannot run their daughters lives You mean like we did with.... Italians? Jews? Polish? Ukrainians? and in time they too all assimilated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 You mean like we did with.... Italians? Jews? Polish? Ukrainians? and in time they too all assimilated. their religions and cultures were never as strict as Islam and the vicious controlling culture that accompanies it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 their religions and cultures were never as strict as Islam and the vicious controlling culture that accompanies it Oh so now we move the goalposts. Ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Oh so now we move the goalposts. Ok. its easier to assimilate if your culture isn't the worst freedom killing one in the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 the thing is its harder for muslim women to follow their heart because either the men in her family turn violent or you're shamed dating a man with another religion is about the worst thing that a muslim woman could do It happens to all religious families. It's was a running gag on Big Bang Theory that Wolowitz's mother would have a heart attack if he brought home a woman that wasn't Jewish. His fiance Bernadette got together with him because she wanted to upset her Roman Catholic family with a Jewish boyfriend. A white student in one my classes recently shared a story about her grandmother disowning her because she dated a black guy a few years ago, so it happens with race too. I really wish these kinds of things didn't happen, but the Muslim community certainly doesn't have the market cornered on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 It happens to all religious families. It's was a running gag on Big Bang Theory that Wolowitz's mother would have a heart attack if he brought home a woman that wasn't Jewish. His fiance Bernadette got together with him because she wanted to upset her Roman Catholic family with a Jewish boyfriend. A white student in one my classes recently shared a story about her grandmother disowning her because she dated a black guy a few years ago, so it happens with race too. I really wish these kinds of things didn't happen, but the Muslim community certainly doesn't have the market cornered on it. i watch the show i know it happens in other cultures but not to the extent it happens with Muslims Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olp1fan Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 you also seen how priyahs sp parents felt about her dating an american white boy she had to move back home to India which i know isnt muslim but same type of controlling culture that is not canadian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstone Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 that would be equal to religious persecution...simple solution is for all those present for the oath be only women... More segregation......wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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