What Being a Zionist Means

[dre]

Incorrect. If there is any distinction to be made in the long string of massacres of Jews, it is with the beginnings of the pogroms in Russia and other Slavic nations. These began in the 1880s, while Zionism, as a movement, only began to gain any real influence after 1897. Zionism was a response to the extermination of Jews in eastern Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and its aims were to create a state where Jews would not face this constant murder and could live in peace among their own kind.

Thats fine, but the fact is zionists are not the "saviors of jews" that many make them out to be, and they intentionally caused and contributed to a lot of jewish suffering and death. Their actions speak for themselves, and a lot of jews dont at all like what they did.

As for ISrael being cruicial to jewish existance, I dont buy that either. I dont see any reason to believe that there would be less Jews living in the world today without zionists, and Israel, and in fact there might be a whole lot more.

Edited December 6, 2011 by dre

[Bonam]

Thats fine, but the fact is zionists are not the "saviors of jews" that many make them out to be,

Aren't they though? Thanks to the success of the Zionist movement in the creation of Israel, almost a million Jews escaped the Arab world, where they faced dhimmitude and massacres. It provided a place for Jews to flee from Poland, where Poles continued to massacre Jews even after WWII and the Holocaust had ended. And it provided a place for Jews from the Soviet Union, which carried out institutionalized antisemitism right up through 1991, to immigrate to. Today, Jews are doing very well, both in Israel and in the diaspora.

[Bonam]

As for ISrael being cruicial to jewish existance, I dont buy that either.

Was the list of massacres of Jews not long enough for you? History has proven Jews aren't safe living in the nations of others. Sometimes it's fine for a while, but inevitably the locals turn sour on their Jewish neighbors. Sometimes they are gentle and settle for stealing all their property and expelling them, as the English tended to do. Other times they are less gentle and go the massacre route.

A people without a state are never safe. That is true for all ethnic groups, not just Jews.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Bonam

[dre]

Was the list of massacres of Jews not long enough for you? History has proven Jews aren't safe living in the nations of others. Sometimes it's fine for a while, but inevitably the locals turn sour on their Jewish neighbors. Sometimes they are gentle and settle for stealing all their property and expelling them, as the English tended to do. Other times they are less gentle and go the massacre route.

A people without a state are never safe. That is true for all ethnic groups, not just Jews.

Again thats fine, but not any kind of argument against what I said. History changes us, I see a lot less tolerance in the world for the persecution of ethnic minorities than there has been in the past. Jews would continue to exist, and for the most part be treated fairly well in most of the world whether Israel existed or not. The majority of jews that have no interest in living in Israel seem to be doing just fine.

Im not hearing about any big jewish massacres in ANY of these places these days.

1 Israel 5,703,700 42.5%

2 United States 5,275,000 39.3%

3 France 483,500 3.6%

4 Canada 375,000 2.8%

5 United Kingdom 292,000 2.2%

6 Russia 205,000 1.5%

7 Argentina 182,300 1.4%

8 Germany 119,000 0.9%

9 Australia 107,500 0.8%

10 Brazil 95,600 0.7%

11 Ukraine 71,500 0.5%

12 South Africa 70,800 0.5%

13 Hungary 48,600 0.4%

14 Mexico 39,400 0.3%

15 Belgium 30,300 0.2%

Having said that Im not against the jewish people having a state. But jews would exist with or without it. The existential threat they face is low birthrates, not massacres and extermination. Although If I practiced judaism, Id be worried that god would be real pissed off about Israel.

Edited December 6, 2011 by dre

[Bonam]

Again thats fine, but not any kind of argument against what I said. History changes us, I see a lot less tolerance in the world for the persecution of ethnic minorities than there has been in the past. Jews would continue to exist, and for the most part be treated fairly well in most of the world whether Israel existed or not.

For now. There have been periods of varying lengths where Jews have been treated decently in other countries in centuries past, too. No one can predict what will happen in the future, but history is the best guide we have. And that paints a very clear picture.

[jbg]

Youre ignoring the fact that zionists were pushing these countries NOT to offer asylum to jews. Zionists were one of the reasons they needed a refuge in the first place.

Why in your book are the Jews the only people not entitled to self-determination? And while we're at it why was the creation of Transjordan by the British in 1923 the "two-state" solution? Or is the real goal to salami-slice Israel so it dies?

[dre]

For now. There have been periods of varying lengths where Jews have been treated decently in other countries in centuries past, too. No one can predict what will happen in the future, but history is the best guide we have. And that paints a very clear picture.

History is a guide to the past not the future. And if you believe the past will repeat itself, then the state of Israel isnt going to do much good protected jews from the next christian crusade. Especially since only a minority of them even live there.

My guess is Jews living in Canada or the US are safer than those living in Israel anyhow.

[dre]

Why in your book are the Jews the only people not entitled to self-determination? And while we're at it why was the creation of Transjordan by the British in 1923 the "two-state" solution? Or is the real goal to salami-slice Israel so it dies?

What? Where did I say jews were not entitled to self-determination? Nearly 2 hundred countries recognize Israels right to exist. I have a greater personal stake in the existance of Israel than you do.

I simply pointed out that theres more to the zionist story than youre aware of. Do you not even find it slightly concerning that the zionist movement encouraged countries around the world to turn your people away and "make them suffer"? Do you not find it concerning that they played an active and deliberate role in fostering anti-semetism around the world?

[DogOnPorch]

What? Where did I say jews were not entitled to self-determination? Nearly 2 hundred countries recognize Israels right to exist. I have a greater personal stake in the existance of Israel than you do.

I simply pointed out that theres more to the zionist story than youre aware of. Do you not even find it slightly concerning that the zionist movement encouraged countries around the world to turn your people away and "make them suffer"? Do you not find it concerning that they played an active and deliberate role in fostering anti-semetism around the world?

Maybe you could point out a few examples of how Zionism played an active and deliberate role in fostering anti-Semitism around the World. You've mentioned it a few times, now...so, no doubt, you have some concrete historical events we can mull over.

[wyly]

Most of the ones I cited are pretty well known, at least by educated and/or intelligent people.

well that's self centered arrogance...1st education and intelligence are not the same at all, one can be intelligent without being educated...2nd assuming that everyone should know obscure bible stories from a religious sect that makes up a tiny fraction of the worlds population, talk about delusions of self important grandeur ...

[Guest American Woman]

Youre ignoring the fact that zionists were pushing these countries NOT to offer asylum to jews. Zionists were one of the reasons they needed a refuge in the first place.

[DogOnPorch]

well that's self centered arrogance...1st education and intelligence are not the same at all, one can be intelligent without being educated...2nd assuming that everyone should know obscure bible stories from a religious sect that makes up a tiny fraction of the worlds population, talk about delusions of self important grandeur ...

First: jbg said "and/or"...

Second: So what you're saying is that YOU'RE not familiar with the stories of the Bible. Many of us are familiar with the various stories of the OT.

[Hudson Jones]

Sorry but that makes no sense at all. The fact that some british politicians and diplomats briefly considered various locations for resettling jews somehow is supposed to take away from jews viewing israel as their homeland? Perhaps they should view the siberian oblast where stalin wanted to resettle them as their new homeland?

It was the Zionist leaders who looked into places like Uganda and Argentina. So it makes perfect sense.

[Hudson Jones]

Look, zionism is simply the belief that jews should have their own state.

Even if it means occupying another people's land and forcing many of them out. That's a belief that should not be supported.

[jbg]

Even if it means occupying another people's land and forcing many of them out. That's a belief that should not be supported.

The people there were nomadic.More people came after the Jews developed what had become a fetid wasteland.

[wyly]

The people there were nomadic.More people came after the Jews developed what had become a fetid wasteland.

the little known history of the world according to zionists...it's little known because they make it up as they go...

[GostHacked]

The people there were nomadic.More people came after the Jews developed what had become a fetid wasteland.

If the Jews had no 'home' to speak of then the Jews were nomadic as well. Correct?

[wyly]

If the Jews had no 'home' to speak of then the Jews were nomadic as well. Correct?

hey now ghost you've gone too far, we don't want any logic thought being demonstrated here...

[Hudson Jones]

The people there were nomadic.More people came after the Jews developed what had become a fetid wasteland.

It's strange that you would say that since there is ample evidence that there were permanent towns and villages all over the area with generations of Arabs living there. You and the revisionists may not want to admit this, but even the early Zionist leaders acknowledged the fact that Arabs inhabited the land. Here is Ben Gurion from 1918 quoted in Benny Morris' Righteous Victims:

"Palestine is not an empty country . . . on no account must we injure the rights of the inhabitants."

According to Justine McCarthy, "in 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews (including many European Jews from the first and second Aliyah)."

[Post To The Left]

The people there were nomadic.More people came after the Jews developed what had become a fetid wasteland.

"Fetid wasteland"? Sounds like some has been reading the disgraced book: From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the ArabJewish Conflict Over Palestine by Joan Peters

Later, when a number of scholars (of whom Finkelstein was the first) examined the book carefully, they concluded that it was of no scholarly value whatsoever. It ignores important parts of the documentary record, misuses the sources on which it does rely, and contains straightforward logical errors.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2007/04/30/dershowitz-v-finkelstein-who-s-right-and-who-s-wrong/

What is surprising is that Joan Peters still writes as if the Zionist myths were wholly true and relevant, notwithstanding all the historical work that modifies or discredits them. The surprise is even greater when one considers her claim to have done original research in the historical archives and even to have discovered “overlooked ‘secret’ (British) correspondence files” in the Public Record Office in London, among other sources of “neglected” information. Indeed, by looking for the “right” evidence and by reading documents selectively one can “prove” virtually anything. But substituting Jewish-Zionist myths for Arab ones will not do. Neither historiography nor the Zionist cause itself gains anything from mythologizing history.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1986/jan/16/mrs-peterss-palestine/?pagination=false

[Rue]

Obviously, unfortunately, the lives of millions of Jews did not "last long," as recently as WWII - when Canada and the U.S. didn't give refuge to nearly the number of Jews seeking it, desperately needing it. So Israel, as a place of refuge for Jews, most definitely could be perceived as a key to Jews' survival.

Well stated as usual.

[GostHacked]

hey now ghost you've gone too far, we don't want any logic thought being demonstrated here...

I might not be the brightest or most knowledgable anti-semite on the board /sarcasm, but I do have a couple questions now and then that are good.

[Rue]

hey now ghost you've gone too far, we don't want any logic thought being demonstrated here...

Logic. Come now this is a forum of subjective opinions. Are you suggesting anything but?

Say now there is a plant called the wandering Jew plant. You must own one. Also for the record there is a Jewfish and a Jew's harp.

Now for you Jew experts of course Jews were nomadic in Europe. They were not allowed to own land and always escaping pogroms.

Say now interesting how that works. See you come in my village and rape and burn everyone I flee.

Of course they were on the move. So what was your point?

That you think JBG is opinionated and you are not?

Lol.

Come on let's get serious.

The reality is simple. There were Palestinians only they were not called that. The term Palestinian is a modern invention by Arafat.

There were Jews, Christians and Muslim Arabs living in the area today known as Israel, Jordan and the West Bank.

The majority were Muslim Arabs but they were itinerant and that is because the land was mostly swamp and desert. That was and remains a fact. The Arab peoples were not farmers. They were goat herders and the goats destroyed any grass or bush.

These were poor people. Most squatted on land owned by absentee landowners in Turkey. These itinerants barely fed themselves and paid huge amounts of rent to these land owners in Turkey and many were drafted into the Ottoman army.

When Jews started coming they paid for shit land and revitalized it and by being able to do so it created jobs for Arab Muslims as well who became attracted to the success Jews had with draining swamps and planting.

For the most part there were zero problems. Wealthy Arabs in fact donated land to Jewish settlers.

What happened is public domain. The British and French deliberately created a tribal war vbetween Jews and Arabs to justify their presence as supposed mediators. They used the old divide and conquer technique done in Africa, Asia, etc.

The British flooded Palestine with external Arabs to deliberately prevent a Jewish majority population from evolving.

The fact is the majority of Arabs today who call themselves Palestinians are descended from non Palestinian Arabs who flooded Palestine and pushed the actual Palestinian Muslims, Christians and Jews out.

The fact is most people calling themselves Palestine are descended from people who came from outside Palestine only when they are an Arab Muslim they are automatically called a Palestinian but if they were a Jew they are called an imperialist colonialist invader.

You want revisionism? Revisionism is depicting Jews fleeing anti-semitism of Europe as being colonial invaders when they were in fact refugees fleeing the very same colonialists who then propped corupt Arab non democratic states all in the same of getting their hands on oil.

The only reason Israel is a problem is not where it is, its because it causes instability in a place where colonial empires needed oil fifedoms. An independent Jewish state allied with Arab states as Israel would have originally been would have meant the British, French and Germans could not have manipulated the Arab states.

The original Israel would have been a small Swiss like enclave and ended up as the banking centre of the Middle East and looked far different then it is today.

The creation of Israel is all about how the Arab League by refusing to concede to a small enclave in fact caused the creation of an Israel not even Zionists envisioned.

The fact is the Arab League and the British and French and then Germans all used the Arab empire for their own political agendas and the Arab world to this day can not unify itself.

Ironically Palestinian Arabs, the originals have been forgotten and replaced by people today who are not descendants of them but find themselves without a state because the Arab League of Nations would not take them in.

This all comes down to a refusal to acknowledge not just a Jewish state but the displacement by Arabs of other Arabs deliberately as pawns.

Now let's talk revisionism shall we.

Zionists leading up to and during World War Two did what they thought was best to save Jews from genocide. Some believed the only way to survive was to get to Palestine. Other Jews felt the best way to survive was to flee to other countries and some went into denial. Its easy in hindsight to look back and make up idiotic suggestions that Zionists wanted to sacrifice Jews or

ally themselves with Nazis but that is b.s.

The history of Zionism is complex. By far most Zionists were not religious and saw it as simply becoming master's in our own domain-to go back where we originally came from to no longer be second class or third class in either Europe or the dhimmitude world of Islam.

Original Zionism was not religious nor did it envision displacing Arabs. There were extremists who were Zionist but they were not the majority and the Palmach-Haganah rejected their tactics and at their height the Zionist extremists never amounted to more than 250 individuals including ironically Shamir and Begin who became Prime Ministers.

The fact is the vast majority of Zionists just wanted to be free in their own country and the average Palestinian, was not a hater of Jews but by the time the Mufti of Jerusalem and his alliance with the Germans took place, he was able to incite major

anti-semitism.

The fact is Egypt, Syria and Iraq openly embraced Hitler, created Hitler imitation regimes right down to the uniforms, secret police and goose stepping and Syria was run by Nazis after World War Two for over 25 years.

Revisionism? Revisionism is denying Jews were refugees but portraying them as colonizers. Revisionism is pretending Arabs who displaced Palestinians are now Palestinians entitled to rights no other refugee in the world including Jews was ever granted.

Now we can wax on all we want about the origins of Israel the fact is JBG will have his spin and you anti Israelis wil have yours and then there will be people like me in the middle who say the origins of the current conflict came about from a

deliberate tribal war set by the British and French and then later Germans to justify their presence.

Then after them came the Americans, Chinese and Japanese and now India all in search of their own oil sources.

All the Middle East is, is a pit of oil for nations addicted to it. No one cares about Palestinians or Israelis and would be able to tell the difference if they met them.

[Rue]

hey now ghost you've gone too far, we don't want any logic thought being demonstrated here...

Logic. Come now this is a forum of subjective opinions. Are you suggesting anything but?

Say now there is a plant called the wandering Jew plant. You must own one. Also for the record there is a Jewfish and a Jew's harp.

Now for you Jew experts of course Jews were nomadic in Europe. They were not allowed to own land and always escaping pogroms.

Say now interesting how that works. See you come in my village and rape and burn everyone I flee.

Of course they were on the move.

The majority of people in Palestine were Muslim Arabs but they were itinerant and that is because the land was mostly swamp and desert and they had no land titles to it. That was and remains a fact. The Arab peoples were not farmers. They were goat herders and the goats destroyed any grass or bush. The ones that did farm did what we call subsistence farming. They grew melons or figs or pomegranites or dates.

These were poor people. Most squatted on land owned by absentee landowners in Turkey. These itinerants barely fed themselves and paid huge amounts of rent to these land owners in Turkey and many were drafted into the Ottoman army. Most kept moving as they had to feed their goats and had no money to pay the landowners-most were squatters.

When Jews started coming they paid for shit land and revitalized it and by being able to do so it created jobs for Arab Muslims as well who became attracted to the success Jews had with draining swamps and planting. Arabs and Jews had no problems.

Wealthy Arabs in fact donated land to Jewish settlers fleeing the Nazis and pogroms.

What happened is public domain and the archives of what the British and French and then Germans did is there for anyone to read. The British and French deliberately created a tribal war vbetween Jews and Arabs to justify their presence as supposed mediators and then the Nazis used the Mufti of Jerusalem as a Nazi propoaganda agent to try get Arabs to rise against the British during WW2.

Ironically the vst majority of Jews and Arabs fought for the British despite the Mufti of Jerusalem's efforts or the pro Nazi regimes in Egypt, Syria and Iraq.

The fact is Churchill's plan flooded Palestine with external Arabs to deliberately prevent a Jewish majority population from evolving into a nation. Churchill openly stated this was the plan and that Britain lied and told the Jews it supported a Jewish state but told the Arabs it would never allow one to form at the same time.

The fact is the majority of Arabs today who call themselves Palestinians are descended from non Palestinian Arabs who flooded Palestine and pushed the actual Palestinian Muslims out in far greater numbers then any Jews did.

The fact is most people calling themselves Palestine are descended from people who came from outside Palestine.

That stated, the fact is another state is needed for today's people who call themselves Palestinians and the only way that can happen is if all you Jew and Arab history geniuses go home and allows Israelis and Palestinians to settle it without our lectures.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Rue

[Hudson Jones]

Zionism, as an ideology, evolved in response to the rise of Europe's nationalism and anti-Semitism in the late 19th century, especially in Tsarist Russia, France during the Dreyfus affair, and Germany after World War 1.

Similarly, Palestinian nationalism evolved in response to the presence of Zionism in Palestine, and most importantly because of the British intention to turn Palestine into a "Jewish National Home".

To try to delegitimize Palestinian nationalism as something fake is dishonest, especially when in another breath, there is pumping of Israeli/Zionist nationalism.

Fact remains that before and during the first Zionist migration the population of Palestine was over 90% Arab and they owned and operated over 97% of the land.

As for the post above in regards to Palestinians not farming, here is information from Bernard Lewis who gives a much different account of Palestinians did:

Late Ottoman and British Mandate periods

In the middle of the 1st century of the Ottoman rule, i.e. 1550 AD, Bernard Lewis in a study of Ottoman registers of the early Ottoman Rule of Palestine reports:[44]

From the mass of detail in the registers, it is possible to extract something like a general picture of the economic life of the country in that period. Out of a total population of about 300,000 souls, between a fifth and a quarter lived in the six towns of Jerusalem, Gaza, Safed, Nablus, Ramle, and Hebron. The remainder consisted mainly of peasants, living in villages of varying size, and engaged in agriculture. Their main food-crops were wheat and barley in that order, supplemented by leguminous pulses, olives, fruit, and vegetables. In and around most of the towns there was a considerable number of vineyards, orchards, and vegetable gardens.

We should also take into consideration, the population of Arabs and Jews in that land:

By Volney's estimates in 1785, there were no more than 200,000 people in the country.[45] According to Alexander Scholch, the population of Palestine in 1850 had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns; roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews[46]

According to Ottoman statistics studied by Justin McCarthy,[47] the population of Palestine in the early 19th century was 350,000, in 1860 it was 411,000 and in 1900 about 600,000 of which 94% were Arabs. In 1914 Palestine had a population of 657,000 Muslim Arabs, 81,000 Christian Arabs, and 59,000 Jews.[48] McCarthy estimates the non-Jewish population of Palestine at 452,789 in 1882, 737,389 in 1914, 725,507 in 1922, 880,746 in 1931 and 1,339,763 in 1946.[49]

Edited December 9, 2011 by Hudson Jones