What Being a Zionist Means

[Bob]

palestine was not the first option for a state. some of the early plans for jewish resettlement were not even formally nationalist: they made no claim to a state. resettlement in a british colony, such as uganda, was for a time the most serious option. the negotiations came to nothing - but the idea influenced british policy, when palestine became a british mandate territory, after the first world war.

Except Uganda isn't where we come from, is it? Israel is the most important place of our historical heritage. Moreover, Israel had already been decided on in the late 19th century, anyways, when the early Zionists began to reclaim our land and lay the foundations for the rebirth of Israel. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, but it looks like you're engaged in yet another pathetic attempt to try and delegitimize Jewish self-determination in Israel. As if the solutions considered to stateless by the early Zionists, for example Uganda, somehow undermine the path that was chosen that has led us to where we are today.

[Bob]

Zionism in many ways is actually an anti-jewish phisolophy. Early zionists actually encouraged other countries to turn jews away and collaborated with the Nazis to kick jews out of Germany. Zionists cared more about their new nationalist aspirations than they did about Judaism, and actually worked to promote anti-semitism around the world so that jews would have to move to Israel to escape it.

Ben Gurion said...

In other words he would rather have half of those jews die and the other half move to Israel then have them all live, and end up in North America, the USSR or Europe.

Heres a quote from Theodor Herzl's diary...

These people, obsessed with nationalism NOT Judaism helped destroy jewish communities around the world, and worked to foster distrust of jews in many nations.

In 1921 Jacob Klatzkin, a prominent political zionist in Germany wrote this to try to build suspicion and distrust of jews in Germany...

Chaim Weizman, who would later become the first Israeli president made the following statement in a public address.

Sounds like something Hitler or Gobels might say.

Zionist, Rabbi Klaussner, who was in charge of displaced persons presented a report before the Jewish American Conference on May 2nd, 1948 :

This is a gross misrepresentation of Zionism, early Zionist motivations, and Ben-Gurion and Herzl. You are literally towing the anti-Semitic narrative of trying to demonize Zionism by demonizing some of its most notable historical leaders. Ben-Gurion's quote, which is almost exclusively referenced by anti-Semitic/anti-Zionist websites (all one needs to do is copy-and-paste that quote you shared into a Google search to see the types of vile sites that reference it gleefully), is simply his recognition that without statehood, the Jewish people would eternally be victimized and vulnerable. The message, which you are trying to smear, is actually quite obvious - if a heavy price must be paid for the survival of the Jewish people, then so be it. Your liberal sensitivities are clearly rattled by Ben-Gurion speaking candidly, as a leader, about the tough decision he would have made if forced into making such a terrible choice. Yet you parrot the anti-Semitic canard that this quote somehow reveals an inhuman Zionist leader.

The same thing is true for your alleged Herzl quote, no doubt also copy-and-pasted from an anti-Semitic website. It seems to be a false quote, so I won't address it. I invite anyone here to copy-and-paste a portion of the alleged Herzl quote into a Google search, and see for yourself the types of sites that dre frequents. Virtually all of the results are patently anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist websites. The false narrative of Zionist "collaboration" with Nazis in order to advance the Zionist call is another smear tactic from the usual suspects, as if the Jews of the time weren't in an impossible position. For dre to portray himself as sitting in judgment of those Jews that had to make terrible decisions between saving some and losing others is unsurprising, but typical given his despicable history of posting on these issues, all in a disgusting attempt to smear Zionism.

The quote from Rabbi Klausner is also lifted from a false anti-Semitic source, found in this anti-Zionist/anti-Semitic book: The Mythical Foundations of Israeli Policy

So this is what dre's been reduced to, parroting false quotes (except for the Ben-Gurion quote) lifted from anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist websites in order to parrot the typical narrative of the evil cold-blooded Zionists who wanted nothing except to establish an evil colonial entity. Nevermind the fact that what compelled the early Zionists, and what continues to compel Zionists today is an understanding of history that teaches us that without self-determination through statehood, we will always be vulnerable to the wishes of our enemies. Moreover, if we don't stand up for ourselves, nobody will. Zionism was and remains a movement of emancipation and liberation, yet this Jew-hater is committed to smearing the movement with outright lies and spin. Really, really sickening.

[Bob]

Zionist writings were brutally honest, and you are cherrypicking. They were essentially trying to find the few positives out of a horrible situation. That antisemitism could speed the immigration of Jews to a Jewish state is obviously true. As for helping the Nazis to kick the Jews out of Germany, I think we'd all agree that any Jew that managed to get "kicked out" of Germany was extremely lucky.

All of his quotes, except the one from Ben-Gurion, are false. Do a copy-and-paste Google search with the false Herzl quote and the false Klaussner quote and see for yourself. It's quite revealing when you consider the sites that dre must have visited in order to lift those "quotes".

[Bob]

The problem is like I said, the early zionists played a part in all that. They encouraged anti-semitism, and encouraged countries to turn jews away. Their "plan" to achieve their nationalist vision was to spread hatred of jews throughout the world.

Of course this entire post of yours is an absolute lie. You're literally trying to blame Zionism for anti-Semitism and the Holocaust, while American Woman is obviously sensible enough to see through your bullshit and recognize Zionism as reactionary towards the realities of anti-Jewish persecution. It's really sick how you're trying to spin this into some sort of chicken-and-egg narrative. You're literally parroting the Islamist anti-Semitic narrative of Zionism, where everything is some evil Jewish conspiracy.

[Bob]

why do Jewish people talk as if they are the most important ethnicity?

Reminds me of the Nazis

Where the hell did this come from? Another Jew-hater, of course. You might as well just say that Jews are like Nazis. I'm guessing this person is so consumed with self-loathing and hatred that the envy of what the Jews represent: academic achievement, contributions to the arts, and overall success, consume him/her. "Damn Jews! They have so much! Who the hell do they think they are?!"

[Bob]

Youre ignoring the fact that zionists were pushing these countries NOT to offer asylum to jews. Zionists were one of the reasons they needed a refuge in the first place.

Of course this isn't true, but carry on....

[Bob]

If I may: The fact that Palestine was not the first and only option, shows that the idea and continuous propaganda about the location of Israel being the 'eternal' homeland of the Jews is false.

The early Zionist brainstorming that considered Uganda doesn't show anything about the falsehood of Israel being the eternal homeland of the Jewish people. What it shows is that the early Zionist movement was contemplating various solutions to the problems of statelessness. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Bob]

I hear they control the World's governments, banking systems and the mass media besides using the blood of virgins for their holiday cooking.

Although dre has never been worthy of any serious respect (he can't even spell "controversial"), he's really sunk to a new low in this thread. He's literally towing the Islamist line that Zionists created, or at the very least greatly fostered and grew, anti-Semitism in Europe towards the ends of achieving Zionist ambitions. This is a total fabrication, and the simple version is that Zionism's origins were largely a reactionary movement towards the reality of anti-Semitic persecution. We needed a solution the oppression facing us (and the upcoming pinnacle of this hatred - the Holocaust), and that solution was and remains self-determination through statehood.

[Black Dog]

Although dre has never been worthy of any serious respect (he can't even spell "controversial"), he's really sunk to a new low in this thread. He's literally towing the Islamist line that Zionists created...blah blah blah

When pedantry backfires.

[Bob]

When pedantry backfires.

The "w" is beside the "e" on the keyboard, you know? Guess that's hard for you notice.

[Black Dog]

The "w" is beside the "e" on the keyboard, you know? Guess that's hard for you notice.

So in what part of the keyboard is "fucking up the use of the word 'literally'" located?

[bud]

So in what part of the keyboard is "fucking up the use of the word 'literally'" located?

bob promotes himself as an intellectual on this forum almost as much as he he promotes the zionist agenda.

Edited December 19, 2011 by bud