maplesyrup Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 The West is the big winner in the new Martin Liberal cabinet with 8 positions, a lot of them high profile, going to members from the western provinces. I suppose all the people who have been crying about Western alienation can now put away their tissue boxes and dry their tears, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Some of Brian Mulroney's biggest cabinet ministers (Clark, Mazankowski, Carney, Campbell...) were from the west. Having ministers from the west doesn't make much difference if the government's policies suck. It depends on how much PMPM actually listens to people around him. If he's like Chretien, then he probably doesn't listen much at all. If he's not like Chretien, then maybe having a few more western voices in the cabinet will help (although, the west is still under-represented in cabinet.) -kimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Even if the West had 100% of the cabinet members, some westerners would still whine about being left out. Western alienation is now dead - time to get over it. If you are going to make a statement that the west is still under-represented please at least back it up with some facts, some statistics, something with some substance to it, otherwise one might assume you are one of those western whiners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 you have to vote in good Liberal candidates if you want more representation in cabinet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 The West is the big winner in the new Martin Liberal cabinet with 8 positions, a lot of them high profile, going to members from the western provinces. What did we win? I suppose all the people who have been crying about Western alienation can now put away their tissue boxes and dry their tears, eh? Who said we were crying? I'm hoping mad....the only tears I'll be crying are those of joy, when the West is a soverign nation. Having ministers from the west doesn't make much difference if the government's policies suck. It depends on how much PMPM actually listens to people around him. If he's like Chretien, then he probably doesn't listen much at all. If he's not like Chretien, then maybe having a few more western voices in the cabinet will help (although, the west is still under-represented in cabinet.) Exactly, and what will happen to these "western savours" if they try to voice more western views and Martin doesn't buy it? Even if the West had 100% of the cabinet members, some westerners would still whine about being left out. Left out of what.......a corrupt government? Western alienation is now dead - time to get over it. If you are going to make a statement that the west is still under-represented please at least back it up with some facts, some statistics, something with some substance to it, otherwise one might assume you are one of those western whiners. You want some "facts, some statistics, something with some substance to it", open your eyes and look the hell around you..........perhaps the next logical progression will be some sort of "western sponsorship program" to tell us how good we have it to have a "big brother" like Ottawa to look out for us. The net result to the federal liberals (as put best on tonight news) is that they won't gain any progress in the West and they will lose support in Ontario........ Piss on Martin and his proverbial cookie that he has bestowed onto the West! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playfullfellow Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 More western Liberal Cabinet ministers won't really mean squat if Martin or the rest of the Liberals don't really give a crap. The West has a very large agricultural base but he chose a banker from Ontario to run the Ag Portfolio. Time will tell if naything positive comes out of this but given the past history of the Liberals, I am not holding my breath. Caesar, the only reason the west got as many ministers as they did was because Martin is sucking up. If the west would have voted in more liberals, they would have done as in the past, nothing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Just what is wrong with a banker running the agricultural program. We don't need him to plant crops; just to get trade barriers opened and deal with American protectionism while flooding our market with their subsidized produce. A banker may be just what is needed to deal with the situation. Look for more trading partners. I am not too thrilled with Paul Martin myself but since we have voted them in; let's see what they do before we criticize. Try a little optimism instead of so much pessimism. The Liberals will have to listen to the people and the other parties ideas if they want to stay in office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bro Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Why did Mr. Manley drop out of the liberal party so fast? What information did he leave with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Even if the West had 100% of the cabinet members, some westerners would still whine about being left out. Western alienation is now dead - time to get over it. If you are going to make a statement that the west is still under-represented please at least back it up with some facts, some statistics, something with some substance to it, otherwise one might assume you are one of those western whiners. The irony of being challenged to back up my opinion by a guy who continuously posts links to nonsense-articles to "support" his theories is not lost on me. However, I'll give it a go. The 4 western provinces make up about 32% of Canada's population, but only 21% of the new Cabinet. (I would guess that the atlantic provinces are probably over-represented by an equal amount, if not more.) And it is worth noting that the same central Canada media-types who noted that "the west" is *not* a single entity following the election, are now calling this a big victory for "the west" , as if "the west" *is* a single entity afterall. This contingent of cabinet ministers from "the west" consists of 5 from BC, and one each from the prairie provinces. Anyway, the proof is not in whose butt is on what chair, it will be in policies and how the government responds to issues that are important to western Canada. I am approaching the Paul Martin era with an open mind. I believe that he's very different from his pig-headed predecessor, and I do think he is sincere in wanting to bridge regional differences. The new cabinet is certainly a promising start, we will see how things go. -kimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caesar Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Well Albertans seem to think that they are the WEST. BC is the west. The rest are just western. Cabinet posts are not appointed equally from provinces; especially when not that many were elected in the particular province. Cabinet ministers are appointed by the best man for the job within Canada and within the ruling party. Do you have any candidates in the western provinces that would have been better choices for the positions? That is the only question that would be relevant. Otherwise, the "west" is just acting like spoilt children by complaining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playfullfellow Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Just what is wrong with a banker running the agricultural program. Just how does a banker understand the day to day running of a farm? You need a person with agricultural background to run that portfolio. That is like asking a person who lives in Saskatoon to run the fisheries department. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Well Albertans seem to think that they are the WEST. BC is the west. The rest are just western.Cabinet posts are not appointed equally from provinces; especially when not that many were elected in the particular province. Cabinet ministers are appointed by the best man for the job within Canada and within the ruling party. Do you have any candidates in the western provinces that would have been better choices for the positions? That is the only question that would be relevant. Otherwise, the "west" is just acting like spoilt children by complaining. Let's put the horse before the cart.........the only reason that some could interpret the West as "spoiled children" is because it's a reaction to the East/Liberal government that thinks by giving the west a big "treat" in the form of a few members in cabinet, we will forgot decades of mistreatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Indeed, Stoker. I just wanted to point out that despite some media-types acting like "the west" just won the Powerball Lottery, the cabinet actually under-represents the west in terms of population. 8 out of 38 isn't a big triumph. 8 out of 38 is barely acceptable. That 8 out of 38 seats is seen as a big breakthrough says more about how little cabinet clout western provinces have had in the past than anything else. As for BC being "the west", I think British Columbians should remember that to folks in central Canada, everything past Kenora is "the west". And while "Western Alienation" means different things in different places, all 4 western provinces have had complaints about their roles in Confederation. The fact that Alberta has been the most vocal and the most angry probably stems from the confrontation with Ottawa in the 1980s, and the Reform movement that started here was probably a direct result. I think that the fact that central Canada is even aware that western provinces have been unhappy with the status quo has a lot to do with Albertans pushing back against the federal government, although the federal response to western concerns has been lip-service up to now. -kimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 I just wanted to point out that despite some media-types acting like "the west" just won the Powerball Lottery, the cabinet actually under-represents the west in terms of population.8 out of 38 isn't a big triumph. 8 out of 38 is barely acceptable. That 8 out of 38 seats is seen as a big breakthrough says more about how little cabinet clout western provinces have had in the past than anything else. A very good point, the numbers that is and I agree, but what I'm saying is that as a Westerner from British Columbia, not Alberta, I take this as a slap in the face. To have the ego the size of Paul Martins and to think that 8 people are going to solve western alienation is pure folly. As for BC being "the west", I think British Columbians should remember that to folks in central Canada, everything past Kenora is "the west". And while "Western Alienation" means different things in different places, all 4 western provinces have had complaints about their roles in Confederation. The fact that Alberta has been the most vocal and the most angry probably stems from the confrontation with Ottawa in the 1980s, and the Reform movement that started here was probably a direct result. I think that the fact that central Canada is even aware that western provinces have been unhappy with the status quo has a lot to do with Albertans pushing back against the federal government, although the federal response to western concerns has been lip-service up to now. I'd like to add to your comments by posting a link to a commentary on the election by Doug Christie: Western Bloc In BC, 22 Conservatives; in Alberta, we elected 26 Conservatives; in Saskatchewan we elected 13 Conservatives (out of 14 seats); and in Manitoba we elected 7 Conservatives. This totals 68 Conservatives in Western Canada. We elected 14 Liberals in the West. We elected 16 NDP. We elected an overwhelming number of Conservatives. The official opposition would be a small NDP contingent. So we were not undecided, ambiguous or vague. The numbers speak for themselves. No same sex marriage. No gun registry. Freedom, and traditional values. This was the "Western Block." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 As a Westerner living in BC, I can assure you Doug Christie does not speak for me. Martin has now appointed 5 people in BC to his cabinet, the largest ever, and perhaps more importantly than the numbers, is the importance of the portfolios. Albertans are sound financial managers, with a little help from the oil and gas resources, but their political acumen leave a bit to be desired. I remember once when Chretien visited BC, and someone was complaining to him about such and such a policy. Chretien's response was vote Liberal and maybe you will get what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Martin has now appointed 5 people in BC to his cabinet, the largest ever, and perhaps more importantly than the numbers, is the importance of the portfolios. And what of the "importance of the portfolios"? Are you saying that Ujjal Dosanjh, Anne McLellan, and Ralph Goodale (to name a few) are going to solve western alienation? If you think they will, please tell how? If the people in Alberta are dumb enough to keep on voting for the opposition, that's their problem. Whats "dumb" about voting along the lines of your morals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Who is Doug Christie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Albertans are sound financial managers, with a little help from the oil and gas resources, but their political acumen leave a bit to be desired. Why did you change your post MS to the above from the below? If the people in Alberta are dumb enough to keep on voting for the opposition, that's their problem. ??? My question still stands though, whats "dumb" about voting along the lines of your morals? I remember once when Chretien visited BC, and someone was complaining to him about such and such a policy. Chretien's response was vote Liberal and maybe you will get what you want. I only hope that Paul Martin contiunes that attitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 The morality issue is a dog's breakfast that nobody wins. The Liberals think they own it, The Conservatives think they do, and the New Democrats think they do. Everybody thinks they have a handle on morality, and the reality is nobody does. Who appointed you, or the West, our God(ess)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 The morality issue is a dog's breakfast that nobody wins.The Liberals think they own it, The Conservatives think they do, and the New Democrats think they do. Everybody thinks they have a handle on morality, and the reality is nobody does. Who appointed you, or the West, our God(ess)? You can quite easily base the morals of a region by the way they vote......... Quebec=Bloc Ontario=Liberal West=Conservative The idea of the "people" voting on morals seems to escape the left, which is understandable since the left is acustomed to having their morals based on what the government tells you they should be based on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 To add to that, I think it's quite clear that based on the different "voter blocks" in this country and the voters within each of these three regions that vote them in, the case can clearly be made that, for the most part, the West, Ontario and Quebec should be seperate entities amongst themselves............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Doesn't morality teach you about being a good loser? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Doesn't morality teach you about being a good loser? Yes and it also teachs us that if you are in a no win situation, thus by default always a loser, you had best leave that before mentioned situation instead of being content with the crappy end of the stick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoker Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 To add to that maplesyrup, I'm gald that it has only taken about two pages for you to realize that we (as in the west) are not "big winners", but infact losers. Quite the turn around I must say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maplesyrup Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 stoker....Most of the people on the planet would love to be living in Canada. If it is so bad here, why don't you trade places with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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