cybercoma Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) I'm looking through the Order of Precedence in Canada in a book and I see that religious leaders come before the Supreme Court Justices, Members of the House of Commons, and Senators. So I check Wikipedia (because if it's on Wikipedia it has to be true, right?) and sure enough #20 religious leaders. What does this mean exactly? Why are they ranked ahead of our MPs, Senators and Supreme Court judges? Seems very odd to me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_order_of_precedence Edited November 29, 2011 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Cueing bambino the all knowing...clean up aisle 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Cueing bambino the all knowing...clean up aisle 3 Erm... Can't help on that one, sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) Erm... Can't help on that one, sorry. Help us, Obi Wan! You're our only hope! Seriously though, I can't seem to find any other information on this. It seems odd to have religious leaders on the list, yet no indication of exactly what is meant by that. Edited November 29, 2011 by cybercoma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 It's on Parliament's website too http://www.pch.gc.ca/pgm/ceem-cced/prtcl/precedence-eng.cfm#fn8 #14: Representatives of Faith Communities The footnote says, "The religious dignitaries will be senior Canadian representatives of faith communities having a significant presence in a relevant jurisdiction. The relative precedence of the representatives of faith communities is to be governed by the date of their assumption in their present office, their representatives being given the same relative precedence." What are faith communities? What does significant presence mean? It's all so odd to me. Especially considering who they're above: supreme court judges, members of parliament, and senators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Erm... Can't help on that one, sorry. WTF ? Tuesday November 28th, 2011. A day in infamy. (ya know you couldve BS'd us and all would be cool) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted November 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 I'll ask His Excellency David Johnston on Twitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 What are faith communities? What does significant presence mean? It's all so odd to me. Especially considering who they're above: supreme court judges, members of parliament, and senators. Why? It says right at the top of our constitution, before anything else, that we recognize the supremacy of God. I know it's often assumed this is just for show but think about the pretext it sets for a top down governing paradigm. This notion that power in our country flows up from the people is actually the quaint one. We probably shouldn't trouble ourselves with such inconvenient questions. Mr Canada's appeal that Canadians should look to Mr Harper as a child does their father comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Why? It says right at the top of our constitution, before anything else, that we recognize the supremacy of God. Where's the "top" of our constitution? Besides, it's the Queen who tops the order of precedence, not the religious leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Where's the "top" of our constitution? Besides, it's the Queen who tops the order of precedence, not the religious leaders. The Crown on her head - the conduit through which God's authority to govern is channeled. It all runs downhill from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 The footnote says, "The religious dignitaries will be senior Canadian representatives of faith communities having a significant presence in a relevant jurisdiction. The relative precedence of the representatives of faith communities is to be governed by the date of their assumption in their present office, their representatives being given the same relative precedence."What are faith communities? What does significant presence mean? It's all so odd to me. The order of precedence is a protocol rule/guideline to help organise and run events at which numerous dignitaries of varying rank will be present. I imagine the representatives of faith communities are included because official events frequently include representatives of whatever "faith communities" (First Nations, Christian, Jewish, Muslim) have a "significant presence" in the jurisdiction (i.e. the largest segments of the population adhere to those faiths); they perform smudging ceremonies, read a prayer, a dissertation, or something like that. I just don't know why the representatives of faith communities are placed in precedence together between territorial premiers and puisne justices of the Supreme Court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) The Crown on her head - the conduit through which God's authority to govern is channeled. The crown on her head is a piece of metal decorated with some ermine and precious and semi-precious stones. It isn't a part of the constitution, and it isn't (nor has it ever been) a conduit for divine power. Were you really meaning to refer to the top of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, where the preamble states "Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law"? [ed.: c/e] Edited November 29, 2011 by g_bambino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 I just don't know why the representatives of faith communities are placed in precedence together between territorial premiers and puisne justices of the Supreme Court. You don't think there was ever any deliberate attempt to symbolically represent the religious order of things in our official institutions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 The crown on her head is a piece of metal decorated with some ermine and precious and semi-precious stones. It's also imbued with religious faith. It's a fetish, a powerful one given the importance of religion in our society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 You don't think there was ever any deliberate attempt to symbolically represent the religious order of things in our official institutions? Even if I did, I'd still be left wondering why religious leaders fall specifically between territorial premiers and puisne justices of the Supreme Court. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 It's also imbued with religious faith. Only by those who choose to imbue it with such meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 The order is a little odd, I notice Conrad Black is even higher up the food chain (assuming he's still in it) than the premiers and SC justices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 Were you really meaning to refer to the top of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, where the preamble states "Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law"? [ed.: c/e] Why is that there anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Why is that there anyway? Beats me. What has any of this got to do with the place of faith communities' representatives in the official order of precedence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 Beats me. What has any of this got to do with the place of faith communities' representatives in the official order of precedence? That religion gets a placement at all in our order just irks me I guess. It symbolizes a certain unchanging conservative backwardness, a determination to progress into the future with our gaze forever fixed on the rear view mirror. It's anachronistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 That religion gets a placement at all in our order just irks me I guess. So, public events should include no figures representing faith communities? No smudging ceremony at a commemoration of National Aboriginal Day? No prayer read during Remembrance Day ceremonies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 So, public events should include no figures representing faith communities? No smudging ceremony at a commemoration of National Aboriginal Day? No prayer read during Remembrance Day ceremonies? I'm not bothered by events like these. I can appreciate the good in having a few symbols that bind older societies and cultures together over the long term. The unchanging top down paradigm in particular that religiosity helps set in place or the way it does is what bugs me. To me religion in our government helps to symbolize a rigid inflexibility and resistance to changes in the way we're governed. To question or suggest changes to government is almost akin to apostasy the way some people cling to our traditions. I'm not saying religion is the skeletal framework of the government but it certainly provides a conceptual one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 I'm not bothered by events like these. I can appreciate the good in having a few symbols that bind older societies and cultures together over the long term. Then you shouldn't be bothered by the space for religious leaders reserved in the order of precedence. The order isn't some law setting out the structure of government, or anything like that. It's just a rule/guideline that assists event coordinators in arranging various people and objects: If the city of Calgary is putting on a National Aboriginal Day event that will be attended by the lieutenant governor, the premier, an MP, the mayor, First Nations leaders of the spiritual and political kind, the city bishop, etc., etc., the Alberta order of precedence tells the organisers in what order each should ascend the dais and be seated on it, in what order the dignitaries are addressed by speakers, who's precedes who's in the arrangement of flags, and the like. Orders of precedence don't place religion in government; they’re just protocol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) Then you shouldn't be bothered by the space for religious leaders reserved in the order of precedence. The order isn't some law setting out the structure of government, or anything like that. I realize this Order of Precedence reflects ceremonial protocol, I'm simply saying religious influences, especially Christianity helps set out our concepts of government, ie that it forever remain a top down hierarchical system where authority and power are concentrated as if it were wealth and where resistance to change is paramount. Like Christianity our system of government is inflexible, unchanging, hidebound and at increasing odds with reality. Edited November 30, 2011 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted November 30, 2011 Report Share Posted November 30, 2011 I realize this Order of Precedence reflects ceremonial protocol, I'm simply saying religious influences, especially Christianity helps set out our concepts of government, ie that it forever remain a top down hierarchical system where authority and power are concentrated as if it were wealth and where resistance to change is paramount. I'm pretty sure that form of structure was in place long before Christianity existed and will continue after it's gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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