Are you anti USA or anti Bush?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

as there seems little respect for democracy among Arabs.

There are a large number of Arabs who live and work in Israel that are quite happy with the democratic process. Arafat does not represent them all.

Let the Palestinians go and live in Arab nations. There is no physical, cultural, religious, racial or linguistic difference between them anyway.

Rarely have I heard such blind racial ignorance such as this.

[bibby]

My fellow Comminadians don't think for one moment that the poor US/Commida relations is recent. It goes back at least 12 years. When Chretien took over as PM (Prime MArxist), he led Canada down a dark path of confronting the US every cahnce he had. Even under Clinton (The great Democrat and Pimp) US/Commida relations were strained. Electing a Republican in the US just fueled Commida's hatred for anything that isn't ultra-Liberal. I grew up in Canada and have lived in the US for over 10 years. Relations betwen this country have beem starined during this time.

They were at its best during the Mulroney/Regan years. But once the Libs took over, all hell broke loose.

While Canadians relish their hatred for the US, both countries need each other econimically. I believe this relationship can only be repaired if their are to conservatively minded leaders in office. We have one in MArtin (although a Lib PM, he's conservative in many areas). Now all we need is for Bush (the Liberator of opressed women in Afghanistan and Iraq) to be re-elected.

[caesar]

What we need is for a regime change in the USA and for that new government to start living by our trade agreements and NAFTA and WTO rulings. Stop the bs

[Big Blue Machine]

The BS won't stop ever

[KrustyKidd]

Actually, it was not a war. If it were, it would have been illegal. The US did not officially declare war on Iraq, only on terrorism.

You are right, it was not a war in the normal sense, the Coalition had no need or moral obligation to declare war as they werre (and still are) working within the seemingly broad outlines of the UN resolutions. Now go back to where this is relevent, 1990 when the UN passes resolution 687 which authorizes member states to use whatever means necessary to uphold resolution 669 and all subsequent resolutions. My debating adversary Eureka observes that the UN says some things that are not consistent with action and I observe that never once do they say anything that precludes or negates the authority for member states to use it. On the contrary, they continually underscore that authority while they chasticize Iraq and order her to comply.

What we need is for a regime change in the USA

Unless you are going to get Nader in, things are going to stay the same. Kerry reiterated the other day that he, even with the knowlege that he has now, still would have voted for the war so by regime change, I take it you mean for the whole of the USA to change in an unrealistic manner overnight? I would be interested to hear your ideas..

[caesar]

They were not working within any UN guidelines; they attempted to sneak between them since the USA got that pass on being charged with war crimes. What a crock of bs. It should never have been allowed. Fortunately that is coming to an end.

[Guest eureka]

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html

Here is one link to UN vetoes by the USA - listed. A link to all vetoes is at the bottom. This may be a biased source but the listing is there.

I have forgotten how to make this a link but that is the address

[Guest eureka]

Apparently it shows up as a link.

[caesar]

Disgusting misuse of power.

[KrustyKidd]

They were not working within any UN guidelines; they attempted to sneak between them since the USA got that pass on being charged with war crimes.

Charges pending? Cut me some slack, it's not 'sneaking' when you form a couple of hundred thousand people in the form of a coalition over the period of four months in front of the world. Are you telling me that the UN never had an opportunity to actualy say "member states assisting the Government of Kuwait must not take action until blah blah blah"?

It's opinion of unofficial people, not nations or for that matter the United Nations. If it were, there would be about fifty some odd heads of state served with warrents or sitting in dockets at the Haugue at this moment.

It seems that inaction is the lot of the UN, both for the good and the bad in this case. providing this case is as you say it is. Or did they endorse it by inaction?

[caesar]

denial, denial, denial. The Americans insisted on being exempt from being charged with War Crimes; no wonder.

I is amazing what a rich country can do by bribing and threatening countries. England and Australia went along with Bush against the wishes of its citizens. It is sneaking through loopholes; they knew they would not get another resolution in their favour. Their a"evidence" was already exposed as being fraudulent, forgeries, old and plagarized or just plain irrelevent. The intelligence they used came from a known criminal charged with embezzlement. The American choice front runner as the next president of Iraq. A character now facing forgery charges is Iraq.

[KrustyKidd]

It is sneaking through loopholes; they knew they would not get another resolution in their favour.

Finally you admit that it was legal. That is all I was trying to say.

[Argus]

Let the Palestinians go and live in Arab nations. There is no physical, cultural, religious, racial or linguistic difference between them anyway.

Rarely have I heard such blind racial ignorance such as this.

Perhaps then, oh enlightened one, you would gift us with your extensive knowledge of the racial, ethnic, religious and cultural differences between Palestinians and Lebanese and Syrians and Jordanians?

The fact is there has never been a nation of any kind called "Palestine". That area was simply a part of other areas, a sub-divided province belonging to a variety of nations. Its inhabitants were arabs, and nothing distinguished them from similar Arabs in Lebanon or Syria. In fact, the geographical area historically called Palestine includes present day Jordan. The Palestinians are as different from the Jordanians as people in New Brunswick are from people in Nova Scotia.

[Argus]

They were not working within any UN guidelines; they attempted to sneak between them since the USA got that pass on being charged with war crimes. What a crock of bs. It should never have been allowed. Fortunately that is coming to an end.

Let's see now, the head of the UN Human Rights agency is uh, from where again? Oh yes, that wonderful land of freedom and human rights - Libya.

The UN is, by and large, a collection of murdering dictators. Why should the US let itself be judged by the likes of them?

[Argus]

Disgusting misuse of power.

Why? How do you know any of those vetoes was wrongly applied?

[August1991]

Its inhabitants were arabs, and nothing distinguished them from similar Arabs in Lebanon or Syria. In fact, the geographical area historically called Palestine includes present day Jordan. The Palestinians are as different from the Jordanians as people in New Brunswick are from people in Nova Scotia.

A more apt comparison might be people from Edmonton and people from the Peace River area, or people from Toronto and people from Muskoka. But this is neither here nor there really.

I don't know where you live Argus but if someone evicted you and your neighbours from your homes, you'd probably be upset.

[caesar]

Why? How do you know any of those vetoes was wrongly applied?

Well if it is not obvious that the rest of the world is not always wrong nor is the USA often right. That is your closed mind. If you refuse to look at the obvious misuse; you are too brainwashed to matter

[Argus]

I don't know where you live Argus but if someone evicted you and your neighbours from your homes, you'd probably be upset.

Most of the people who were evicted are dead. There are still some alive, but the majority of that generation fled, abandoning their homes. War is a bitch, but trying to reverse what was decided fifty years ago is pointless.

There is NO WAY that Israel will ever absorb 5 million Palestinians, most of whom think the only good Jew is a dead Jew. Israel would nuke the entire middle east first.

Yet the Palestinians still insist on the right of return. And the surrounding Arab states have consistently refused to give them homes. Even fourth and fifth generations born within the boundaries of Syria, Egypt and Jordan are not considered citizens, but must live in "refugee camps". Had it not been for Arab intransigence they would all have long since been absorbed into the local populations.

[Argus]

Why? How do you know any of those vetoes was wrongly applied?

Well if it is not obvious that the rest of the world is not always wrong nor is the USA often right. That is your closed mind. If you refuse to look at the obvious misuse; you are too brainwashed to matter

I did not say that the US was always right and the "rest of the world" was always wrong. I asked how you knew the vetoes were wrongly used. You strongly imply that at least the majority were an outrageous misuse of power. I asked you to justify that suggestion.

Evidently, you are unable to do so.

[KrustyKidd]

Ceasar is high on rhetoric and low on provability. With any luck, one of our resident Leftists wil jump in with some meat as I am sure it exists. Notwithstanding, the overall justification of the US will be that Israels are fighting for survival in an area of the world that will show them no mercy while the Palestinians are fighting for a place to live. Take away the survival rationale by making peace and the two sides can come together.

On the UN front, a resolution is vetoed for reasons that may not be fair legally but repercussions are extremely unrealistic. The death of millions of people in order to settle the off kilter legal semantics of the Left.

As i have stated before, this injustice can only be rectified when the ISraelis have somebody they can deal with that is not trying to kill them. Until then, they will keep all the power, cards and continue to ignore resolution after resolution. And who can blame them?

[Guest eureka]

KK:

Much of your last posting made sense - not all, of course, or it would not be you.

Now, if you could only leave the Leftist slurs out of it you would be on the way to the nub of the problem.

As for the vetoes by the USA. you have only to look at the records to find out how wrong they were and what an abuse of their position on the Securoty Council.

It is conceivable that once in a blue moon one party might be taking a moral stand against all the rest. It is not conceivable that the party can consistently defy the will of the world and attempts to stop the slaughter and be right.

[KrustyKidd]

With any luck, one of our resident Leftists wil jump in with some meat as I am sure it exists.

This is the slur? I came out and said that Ceasar rants and usually has no proof and that the rest of those who are Left usually have good proof. Get your shit togehter before you come aboard me.

Now, if you could only leave the Leftist slurs out of it

Are you not a resident Leftist? When did you become Right Wing? Do you usually have good proof? Guess not as you didn't see yourself in this comment.

Much of your last posting made sense - not all, of course, or it would not be you.

Now that is a slur.

In my post I explained that Israel was fighting for survival period and that many of those resolutions threatened that, even though in a civilized world they make legal sense. Much like a restraining order when dealing with a phsyco ex. Of course, you ride right over that and come up with this, which has nothing to do with what I said.

As for the vetoes by the USA. you have only to look at the records to find out how wrong they were and what an abuse of their position on the Securoty Council.

I think I addressed that, and actually agreed with you, I also explained the reason why they do what they do, for reasons of practicality. .

Leftist slurs. You haven't seen me slur yet, I, unlike many, do not insult without reason. If you are an idiot I will tell you that you are wrong and why, if you are on a side I don't agree with and make sense, I don't resort to rhetoric, I will actually agree with you as I did here. If you rant, I tell you but one thing I will never do is slander anybody because I disagree with them.

I actually think those from the Left are highly intelligent and have a valid outlook on world politics and such. I listen to their reasons and they usually make sense and often are well within the ballpark of rationality. However, to me, mine make more sense until proven wrong. I am openminded, you know openminded right? The ability to take in new information and corilate it without predjudice becasue it may change a belief you have held for years? Some things do make sense and I take a Leftist stand on those issues and get whipped by the right on those. . If you are simple enough to think that Left and Right are like black and white you have a whole world waiting to be discovered. It is black and white with swaths of each within the other.

Much of your last posting made sense

Why thank you.

not all, of course, or it would not be you.

You didn't address the parts that didn't so I can surmise one of two things, this is bullshit you post and indefensable or else it is slander. Which is it, slander or petty bullshit because usually we are on differing sides of issues and you don't stop and think, instead going into rhetoric mode?

[caesar]

This is the slur? I came out and said that Ceasar rants and usually has no proof

You my dear boy are the one lacking any proof. I have lots of proof; you just refuse to look beyond the end of your nose.

[KrustyKidd]

You my dear boy are the one lacking any proof. I have lots of proof; you just refuse to look beyond the end of your nose.

Let's see, I said "Ceasar rants and usually has no proof"

From this thread alone;

Nope just dumb

Oh good rebuttal.

Well Krusty, if broken resolutions call for invading such a country; better go invade Israel. They have more than Iraq had; despite the American veto protecting them from being held accountable for their illegal invasions, human rights vilations, etc, etc.

Yes, let's saddle up. Get real.

The invasion of Iraq was a morally and unjustified action it only escapes being tried as a war crime due to the USA belly aching and bullying its way into being exempt for prosecution for war crimes.

Israel only escapes taking responsibility for its unjust actions thanks to the veto by the USA. The USA misuses its veto; it even vetoed a resolution against Saddam for using poison gas. Real nice; eh. Support that USA action, too???? Bah

Are we talking about the legality of the action in Iraq or what? You are all over the frickin' map here.

That is your opinion. You listen to too much Bush propaganda. They escape prosecution due to getting the exemption from prosecution for war crimes. Fortunately, that will end within the year. The Iraq fiasco was the last straw. I was disgusted with the bow down to USA blackmail to get such exemption.

Bush propaganda? Is that your reasoning for any who disagree with you? War crimes? First you have to have somebody call it a crime, then prove it. What the hell are you going on about here? Although the US has exempted themselves from charges and prosecution that does not mean that they cannot be charged. Are you trying ot say that the UN is saving themselves a dime because they know it cannot stick or simply rambling?

Give up on Krusty; he is in denial; Brainwashed. Or poerhaps he just likes to argue. trolling, perhaps.

Denial, brainwashed. Wow, you are a regular debating machine. You must have forgotten your 'lots of proof' at work as there seemed to be a lack of it in this post

No, you have to have proof to change my mind. You rant too much.

What we need is for a regime change in the USA and for that new government to start living by our trade agreements and NAFTA and WTO rulings. Stop the bs

Oh good one! Hang ten Ceasar! That was in vougue in 2003 prior to the invasion, now it's just .... ranting.

They were not working within any UN guidelines; they attempted to sneak between them since the USA got that pass on being charged with war crimes. What a crock of bs. It should never have been allowed. Fortunately that is coming to an end.

Oh yes! Comming to an end with Kerry who voted for the action and recently admitted he would do it again knowing what we all do now. Moveon is your guide.

Disgusting misuse of power.

Another direct hit!

Well if it is not obvious that the rest of the world is not always wrong nor is the USA often right. That is your closed mind. If you refuse to look at the obvious misuse; you are too brainwashed to matter

Yes, closed mind because they don't agree with you. If I said you were right I would be a regular Einstien right?

Well, out of twenty two posts I see nine that wouldn't make it to the letters page on the Coffee Cup times. Of the remainder, yes, there were some with rationale.

fifty-fifty. Some with proof and some with rationale and more ranting. Some were realistic and had valid points but were lost in the rhetoric and Bush/America/Israel hate flowing through the common theme. In all, you rant.

[caesar]

I can't be bothered with offering a closed mind proof that you just ignore. Even the American Congress has seen the light better than you.