The TTC thread

[Boges]

Not sure what your point here is. Toronto can't afford this stuff on its own.

Doesn't answer the question of why I can't hold back a portion of my tax bill from things in other parts of the province that don't benefit me.

Well those taxes have been passed into law.

We're talking about proposed taxes that many believe to be unpopular and unneeded.

If Toronto wants expanded transit there should be more user fees and tolls aimed at reducing congestion, not additional VATs for the entire province.

First of all the HST thing won't happen as long as the CPC is in power and I don't think they're even able to do the gas tax thing province-wide, it'll have to be regional. Meaning there'll be an exodus outside of GTA communities to avoid paying the extra fee.

These revenue tools need to be debated as part of an election campaign.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Well those taxes have been passed into law.

We're talking about proposed taxes that many believe to be unpopular and unneeded.

Come on, that's a cop out. If you object to new taxes on the principle of fairness and direct benefit to taxpayers, you should be consistent.

If Toronto wants expanded transit there should be more user fees and tolls aimed at reducing congestion, not additional VATs for the entire province.

user fees and tolls might reduce road congestion. They won't fund transit expansion, though. These things simply cannot generate the necessary revenue.

First of all the HST thing won't happen as long as the CPC is in power and I don't think they're even able to do the gas tax thing province-wide, it'll have to be regional. Meaning there'll be an exodus outside of GTA communities to avoid paying the extra fee.

HST hike can happen as long as it is province-wide, which is what they should do. 1 per cent across the board for infrastructure/transit. Bam, done.

These revenue tools need to be debated as part of an election campaign.

Sure. Unpopular taxes versus the Tory's approach (nothing) or the NDPs (pixie dust).

[Boges]

Come on, that's a cop out. If you object to new taxes on the principle of fairness and direct benefit to taxpayers, you should be consistent.

By that logic you can't disagree with any tax. Putting money into a pool and having people who are paid to know where to properly allocate the funds is very different from a new province-wide tax that only really benefits one region. Especially when the main recipient of the tax has been given special powers to levy taxes on their own.

User fees and tolls might reduce road congestion. They won't fund transit expansion, though. These things simply cannot generate the necessary revenue.

But reducing congestion is the talking point the Liberals keep trotting out. They say it's costing us money and we need to get people off the roads. People can avoid congestion if they want using the Toll Road we already have. . . but many don't.

HST hike can happen as long as it is province-wide, which is what they should do. 1 per cent across the board for infrastructure/transit. Bam, done.

NOPE! the thing about the new HST is that the Feds collect it for the province. Therefore the province has to get the Feds permission to raise it.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/05/30/federal_finance_minister_jim_flaherty_rejects_hst_hike_to_fund_public_transit_in_ontario.html

“We did not lower the GST to have it taken away from Ontarians by the Wynne government with a new sales tax hike,” said Flaherty, who cut the federal levy from 7 per cent to 5 per cent prior to harmonization.

Sure. Unpopular taxes versus the Tory's approach (nothing) or the NDPs (pixie dust).

Nice Hyperbole there but we still do live in a democracy and these proposals will prove to be very unpopular.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/transportation/2013/05/31/metrolinx_hst_gas_tax_proposals_prove_unpopular_poll.html

In the 905 communities surrounding Toronto, a gas tax showed only a 13 per cent approval. The HST hike was approved by only 13 per cent of those in southwestern Ontario.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Boges

[cybercoma]

Black Dog, do you think someone living in Kapuskasing, Sault Ste. Marie, or Leamington should pay for a subway, LRT, or buses in Toronto?

There is an argument to be made that public transit is akin to roadways and roads are a provincial responsibility. However, there's something a bit irksome about the rest of the province being charged for a single city's expenses.

[Black Dog]

By that logic you can't disagree with any tax.

By your logic you can disagree with every tax.

Putting money into a pool and having people who are paid to know where to properly allocate the funds is very different from a new province-wide tax that only really benefits one region. Especially when the main recipient of the tax has been given special powers to levy taxes on their own.

What province wide tax are you talking about? There's none on the table.

But reducing congestion is the talking point the Liberals keep trotting out. They say it's costing us money and we need to get people off the roads. People can avoid congestion if they want using the Toll Road we already have. . . but many don't.

Reducing congestion is a rationale for building more transit. It's not one I agree with. The measure you favour might make people drive less, but that will just put more pressure on transit. Solves nothing.

NOPE! the thing about the new HST is that the Feds collect it for the province. Therefore the province has to get the Feds permission to raise it.

Right. But there's no real reason they couldn't raise it across teh board.

From your link:

Any proposal to raise the rate of the provincial component of the HST within municipal or regional boundaries would contravene the agreement,” he continued in a letter obtained by the Star.

“Let me be clear, our government will not accept such a proposed regional sales tax increase on the residents of the Greater Toronto/Hamilton Area.”

Nice Hyperbole there but we still do live in a democracy and these proposals will prove to be very unpopular.

Duh. Fact is, though, these are the only proposals any of the three parties have put forward. Both the Tories and the NDP are happy to do nothing on this.

[Black Dog]

Black Dog, do you think someone living in Kapuskasing, Sault Ste. Marie, or Leamington should pay for a subway, LRT, or buses in Toronto?

I have to pay for roads and other provincial services in Kapuskasing, Sault Ste. Marie, or Leamington, so why not?

There is an argument to be made that public transit is akin to roadways and roads are a provincial responsibility. However, there's something a bit irksome about the rest of the province being charged for a single city's expenses.

Again, none of the Metrolinx proposals ding the rest of the province. Boges has been spreading misinformation here.

[DFCaper]

Not sure what your point here is. Toronto can't afford this stuff on its own.

Let me see if I understand your logic with another example. Currently, Alberta does not charge it's own VAT and are now running huge deficits.Should increase GST so we can send the extra money to Alberta now that they are running deficits to make sure that they never have to have a VAT?

What you are proposing is that the whole province pay taxes to make up for the fact that people in TO pay half the tax rate of the rest of Ontarians. So that the People of Toronto will have a far superior public transit option that the rest of the people of Ontario will have???

The sadiest part is the McGuinty-Wynne Liberials seem to use the same logic as you!! Like a reverse Robin Hood!!

[Boges]

By your logic you can disagree with every tax.

Sure but current taxes are ones enough people agree are essential. These new taxes certainly aren't.

What province wide tax are you talking about? There's none on the table.

It'll be very interesting to see a regional gas tax. What communities are considered outside of the GTA. Niagara, Cambridge, Oshawa? You create borders where, on one side people pay one rate and on the other people pay another you'll see some gas stations that'll suffer on the outskirts of the GTA. I don't see how it'll be do-able.

These are the only proposals from a wasteful buraucracy the Liberals created. There are other solutions we could consider. It's interesting that Toronto City council refused to advocate for any of them. They know how unpopular they would be.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

Let me see if I understand your logic with another example. Currently, Alberta does not charge it's own VAT and are now running huge deficits.Should increase GST so we can send the extra money to Alberta now that they are running deficits to make sure that they never have to have a VAT?

Terrible analogy is terrible.

What you are proposing is that the whole province pay taxes to make up for the fact that people in TO pay half the tax rate of the rest of Ontarians. So that the People of Toronto will have a far superior public transit option that the rest of the people of Ontario will have???

I'm fine with Toronto raising its property tax rates to stay in line with the rest of the GTA. Why would you think otherwise? The issue is that still won't be enough to actually do anything for transit.

[Black Dog]

No these are the only proposals from a wasteful buraucracy the Liberals created. There are other solutions we could consider. It's interesting that Toronto City council refused to advocate for any of them. They know how unpopular they would be.

The other solutions you've put forward would be woefully inadequate for the purposes.

As for the proposed revenue tools being unpopular, I'm shocked, just SHOCKED, that politicians in full CYA mode won't endorse a tax increase. Stunning.

Finally: you do know that doing the right thing isn't always the popular thing? Frankly, I don't know what you're whinging about since you know full well this won't go forward. You'll get your wish: no taxes and shit transit for Toronto. Bravo.

[Boges]

Finally: you do know that doing the right thing isn't always the popular thing? Frankly, I don't know what you're whinging about since you know full well this won't go forward. You'll get your wish: no taxes and shit transit for Toronto. Bravo.

If the Ontario Liberals get re-elected, it'll be a pretty clear mandate to do this.

And if the Liberals can go to the opposition and say, "look if you don't want to do this, then what would you do?" And if they come up with an unpopular response then perhaps Wynne will get re-elected.

She actually doing a rather competent job other than on her opinions regarding this IMHO of course.

We'll see. And these August 1 byelections will be a good litmus test.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

And if the Liberals can go to the opposition and say, "look if you don't want to do this, then what would you do?" And if they come up with an unpopular response then perhaps they will get re-elected.

The opposition's proposals so far have indicated they think enough money is there in the banana stand. Of course, that means money for GTA transit would be coming from general revenues, meaning people in Sudbury and Kingston and Kookamunga, Ontario will be paying for transit they don't use. The horror!

[Boges]

I think the PCs proposal of putting GO Transit in charge of all the regions transit will be a helpful start. Metrolinx is just a bloated and wasteful mess.

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-story/2524428-ontario-pcs-would-take-control-of-subways-expressways-hudak/

One of the big reasons people don't use regional transit is that is so disjointed. Where you have to pay up to 3 different services to get somewhere. A more streamlined system would be very helpful.

Also you're acting like the Metrolinx proposals are the only way transit expansion will be funded. A third of the plan is already funded and construction has been started. Before they should complete those projects first before they ding the taxpayer for more money.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Boges

[Black Dog]

I think the PCs proposal of putting GO Transit in charge of all the regions transit will be a helpful start. Metrolinx is just a bloated and wasteful mess.

http://www.insidetoronto.com/news-story/2524428-ontario-pcs-would-take-control-of-subways-expressways-hudak/

Did you actually read that?

As proposed in the party’s pre-election “white paper,” Paths to Prosperity, Metrolinx would eventually absorb not just the Gardiner, Allen and DVP - owned and operated by Toronto for decades - but the GTHA’s 400-series highways and “certain bus routes” as well.

Under the PCs, then, Metrolinx would get a whole lot bigger. I'm surprised too that you'd be in favour of taking decision-making power away from democratically elected local authorities.

Also you're acting like the Metrolinx proposals are the only way transit expansion will be funded. A third of the plan is already funded and construction has been started.

Again: there's no other proposals out there.

Before they should complete those projects first before they ding the taxpayer for more money.

That doesn't make any sense. It's like saying "they are already building an overpass, they should finish that before building another".

[guyser]

If Toronto were allowed to keep all the tax money so they could spend it in TO , transit et al, we could well afford to build whatever it is we need to get this city moving.

Of course, Kapuskasing, Thunder Bay and every other town outside the GTA would suffer.

Hmm.....now what ?

The simple truth is there is a surplus of money that TO does not get, but pays, and it improves lives all over the province.....we dont mind. Sadly the reverse is true when its time to pay the bill.

No surprise.

[Boges]

For the purposes of better regional transit, I do agree with less competing organization working against their own collective interests.

As for revenue tools, The only one I outright reject is an additional Regional Gas Tax. Even a boost to the HST won't be the end of the world but I think it'll be a deal breaker to many, including both opposition parties.

[DFCaper]

Terrible analogy is terrible.

I'm fine with Toronto raising its property tax rates to stay in line with the rest of the GTA. Why would you think otherwise? The issue is that still won't be enough to actually do anything for transit.

Toronto on residential taxes is about 1/2 of the rest of the province. They currently collect $3.7B, of which 60% is residential. So doubling property taxes, to the same level as other municipalities, would generate an additional 2.2 Billion Dollars. Funny how it works out the amount they have as a shortfall…

And that is exactly what my analogy is.

Albertans currently have a huge deficit. If they didn’t want use the same revenue tools (Alberta PST vs TO proper property tax rates) to make up that short fall with proper revenue tools, ask the level of government above them to tax everyone to make up for the shortfall. Since asking Albertans to pay taxes like everyone else would not be popular, have the next level take care of it by taxing everyone. Because you know, Albertans pay for extra into the equalization program, so we should allow this?

[Boges]

If Toronto were allowed to keep all the tax money so they could spend it in TO , transit et al, we could well afford to build whatever it is we need to get this city moving.

Of course, Kapuskasing, Thunder Bay and every other town outside the GTA would suffer.

Hmm.....now what ?

The simple truth is there is a surplus of money that TO does not get, but pays, and it improves lives all over the province.....we dont mind. Sadly the reverse is true when its time to pay the bill.

No surprise.

Then why is the Province cutting $150 million from the Toronto budget? Money they were given for social services that other communities don't get. You'd think Toronto would need that money.

As mentioned a few posts ago. Toronto has powers to raise their own taxes to pay for transit if they want to. Of course Mayor Ford would never do that, but that's not the rest of the provinces problem.

When you look at something like the TDSB. They are mired in debt because they can't adapt to the lower enrolment Toronto schools are seeing. The province gives all boards money based on how many students they serve.

Toronto has an entire street full of Hospitals, are you saying a community like Oakville should be thanking Toronto for its one hospital?

Edited July 2, 2013 by Boges

[guyser]

Then why is the Province cutting $150 million from the Toronto budget? Money they were given for social services that other communities don't get. You'd think Toronto would need that money.

If one is homeless or bec0omes that way, do you really think they stay in The Kap or Timmins? Same for a drug addict. Same for immigrants.

Connect the dots boges.

When you look at something like the TDSB.

See now this would be nice, kill the Catholic school board and keep the money. Win win....except it wont happen and cant really. But it should.

Toronto has an entire street full of Hospitals, are you saying a community like Oakville should be thanking Toronto for its one hospital?

Not at all what I am saying.

[DFCaper]

If Toronto were allowed to keep all the tax money so they could spend it in TO , transit et al, we could well afford to build whatever it is we need to get this city moving.

Of course, Kapuskasing, Thunder Bay and every other town outside the GTA would suffer.

Hmm.....now what ?

The simple truth is there is a surplus of money that TO does not get, but pays, and it improves lives all over the province.....we dont mind. Sadly the reverse is true when its time to pay the bill.

No surprise.

Sympathize for Albertan separatist much?

So retired people who either worked in TO most of their lives or parents of children working in TO should have a far lower standard?

Are you against equalization as well?

[guyser]

Toronto on residential taxes is about 1/2 of the rest of the province. They currently collect $3.7B, of which 60% is residential. So doubling property taxes, to the same level as other municipalities,

...yea right !

We do need to raise them slightly but nowhere near double.

Guess who doesnt live in TO.....You.

[guyser]

Sympathize for Albertan separatist much?

So retired people who either worked in TO most of their lives or parents of children working in TO should have a far lower standard?

Are you against equalization as well?

This has what to do with this thread?

[Black Dog]

Toronto on residential taxes is about 1/2 of the rest of the province.

Source?

[DFCaper]

Source?

Toronto:

General Rate: 0.5337653%

Education rate is 0.212000%

http://www.toronto.ca/taxes/property_tax/tax_rates.htm

London:

General rate is 1.155937%

Education rate is 0.212000%

http://www.london.ca/d.aspx?s=/Taxes/Residential/default.htm

Windsor:

General rate is 1.1651926%

Education rate is 0.212000%

http://www.citywindsor.ca/cityhall/Taxes--and-Assessment-/Pages/Tax-Rates.aspx

Sudbury:

General rate is 1.296946%

Education rate is 0.212000%

http://www.greatersudbury.ca/inside-city-hall/tax-services/tax-calculator/

Thunder Bay:

General rate is 1.689627%

Education rate is 0.212000%

http://www.thunderbay.ca/Assets/City+Government/Revenue/docs/Guide+to+Your+Final+2013+Property+Tax+Bill.pdf

Just to name a few

[DFCaper]

This has what to do with this thread?

You were justifing that The rest of Ontario should pay because TO makes more money thus pays more taxes argument... Your argument of Ontario pay for TO since to pays more taxes for being richer is the same argument Albertan seperatist make about equalization, etc..