The TTC thread

[Black Dog]

WAHHHHH!!!!! a 15 cent fare hike.

Do you people have any idea how much GO-Transit costs to use?

First, it's a 10-cent hike. Second, you're missing the point, which is the fare hike is coming at the same time as service levels are dropping to levels from almost a decade ago. That's the issue.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Black Dog

[Boges]

First, it's a 10-cent hike. Second, you're missing the point, which is the fare hike is coming at the same time as service level are dropping to levels from almost a decade ago. That's the issue.

This morning on the radio I heard that if the make it 15 cents they may be able to keep service levels maintained.

But hey, paying more for less service? You you live in Ontario right? That's what our provincial government does best.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Boges

[Black Dog]

This morning on the radio I heard that if the make it 15 cents they may be able to keep service levels maintained.

But hey, paying more for less service? You you live in Ontario right? That's what our provincial government does best.

Except the TTC doesn't get any operating subsidies from the province.

It probably should.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Black Dog

[Archanfel]

We're not talking about another fare increases, but fare increases sufficient to make the system run at a profit.

Try look up how much that needs to be and past fare increases before drawing conclusions. That of course is assuming no cost cutting.

Edited December 10, 2011 by Archanfel

[Black Dog]

Try look up how much that needs to be and past fare increases before drawing conclusions. That of course is assuming no cost cutting.

Why don't you enlighten me then and tell me how much of a fare it would take to run the system as-is at a profit (without even factoring in the immense backlog of capital projects necessary to ensure it can provide a high level of service-assuming that's a priority for you-in the future).

[Archanfel]

Why don't you enlighten me then and tell me how much of a fare it would take to run the system as-is at a profit (without even factoring in the immense backlog of capital projects necessary to ensure it can provide a high level of service-assuming that's a priority for you-in the future).

Sorry, not going to do the leg works for you this time. You made the assertion that ridership AND revenue will drop, I didn't. I'd like to hear your reasons to see whether this is another mere "suggestion" or something you are actually willing to stand behind.

You might also want to consider the cost of running a motor vehicle and how much does TTC fare has to rise to make driving economical. I have no problem if people decided to walk or bike instead of taking the TTC. Those are far better for the environment and good exercises too.

I am not too worried about capital projects. TTC used to be profitable and had no problem covering its expansion. If TTC can stand on its own, then capital projects can be funded by credits over many years like every other companies would do. They can even be funded by taxpayers with the understanding that these new projects will eventually be profitable and taxpayers will get their money back.

Finally, despite the half hearted effort by Rob Ford, I do believe the TTC can drive alternative revenues. The profitable Hong Kong transit takes a lot of money in from real estate development.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Archanfel

[Black Dog]

Sorry, not going to do the leg works for you this time. You made the assertion that ridership AND revenue will drop, I didn't. I'd like to hear your reasons to see whether this is another mere "suggestion" or something you are actually willing to stand behind.

That wasn't the question. You said:

Try look up how much (the fare hike) needs to be and past fare increases before drawing conclusions.

The question was how much it would take to run the system at a profit. You claim you know. So go ahead and prove it.

I am not too worried about capital projects. TTC used to be profitable and had no problem covering its expansion. If TTC can stand on its own, then capital projects can be funded by credits over many years like every other companies would do. They can even be funded by taxpayers with the understanding that these new projects will eventually be profitable and taxpayers will get their money back.

Although the first subway was paid for almost completely from the farebox, the TTC’s ability to pay for extensions to that subway flagged as bus service quadrupled, and the TTC was called upon to establish unprofitable service to the suburbs. Development was outpacing the TTC’s ability to service it, and the automobile was turning out to be the average citizen’s first choice for his or her transportation needs. Metro Toronto had to step in with additional capital subsidies, and then the Province followed suit, until the TTC’s entire capital budget ended up paid for exclusively by taxpayers. Toronto did get the subway expansion it needed however.

The TTC continued to make an operating profit until 1972 when, under political pressure from the suburban majority on council, the TTC eliminated its fare zone system which previously obliged suburban residents to pay an additional fare. By the late 1980s, the annual cost of keeping the TTC afloat was now up to a quarter of a billion dollars of taxpayers’ money, although at 32% of all revenues, this was the lowest subsidy required of any city in North America.

Link

[mentalfloss]

Transit City cancellation to cost $65M

[Black Dog]

Transit City cancellation to cost $65M

Respect for taxpayers!

[Boges]

Wow it took you almost a full 24 hours to rage about this.

This isn't terribly different from when Chairman Miller canned the bridge to the Island Airport though.

[Black Dog]

Wow it took you almost a full 24 hours to rage about this.

And you mere minutes to come in with a useless post.

This isn't terribly different from when Chairman Miller canned the bridge to the Island Airport though.

I think a key difference is that council as a whole voted to kill the bridge, whereas Fordo unilaterally killed Transit City.

[Boges]

I think a key difference is that council as a whole voted to kill the bridge, whereas Fordo unilaterally killed Transit City.

Must be taking his queue from McDalton and these Gas-fired power plants he killed.

[Black Dog]

Must be taking his queue from McDalton and these Gas-fired power plants he killed.

You're all over the place here.

[cybercoma]

Respect for taxpayers!

Stop the GRAVY TRAIN!

[Michael Hardner]

BUMP

Did anyone else here take the TTC today ?

It may have been my worse commute in 20 years...

[cybercoma]

Details?

[Michael Hardner]

I was on the Bloor platform from 842 AM to 920 AM - dangerous overcrowding.

[CPCFTW]

I was on the Bloor platform from 842 AM to 920 AM - dangerous overcrowding.

Have there been any layoffs yet or just a bad day?

I think they should slash ttc workers compensation and use the savings to build an express line along yonge with only 5 or 6 stops (eg. union, dundas, bloor, st clair, eglinton, york mills, finch).

One hour commute times to and from work is so inefficient as a society.

[Rick]

Have there been any layoffs yet or just a bad day?

I think they should slash ttc workers compensation and use the savings to build an express line along yonge with only 5 or 6 stops (eg. union, dundas, bloor, st clair, eglinton, york mills, finch).

One hour commute times to and from work is so inefficient as a society.

Better yet slash all levels of management's salaries to minimum wage and remove all their bloated management benefits first...

Ya know, leading by example and all that...

[Michael Hardner]

Have there been any layoffs yet or just a bad day?

I think they should slash ttc workers compensation and use the savings to build an express line along yonge with only 5 or 6 stops (eg. union, dundas, bloor, st clair, eglinton, york mills, finch).

One hour commute times to and from work is so inefficient as a society.

We'd have to put up with a months-long crippling strike first, though.

Our municipal and provincial governments have marched us into the abyss now. There is no way that transit gridlock in Toronto won't happen in the next 5-10 years. They have been arguing and making political solutions for too long.

[CPCFTW]

Better yet slash all levels of management's salaries to minimum wage and remove all their bloated management benefits first...

Ya know, leading by example and all that...

Or better yet, slash right wingers' throats! Amirite?

[mentalfloss]

Karen Stintz, who was named head of the TTC by Ford, says putting the suburban east and west stretches of the line in a tunnel is a waste of money because there is relatively little road traffic along those portions.

“It makes more sense not to bury it and use the money to build (the) Sheppard (subway),” said Stintz.

The mayor is on the record as being opposed to placing new LRT lines on Toronto’s roadways.

TTC officials have already said that meeting the Metrolinx completion target of 2020 will be extremely difficult. Provincial officials have indicated that the public has no interest in re-making the existing plans and risking further delay to transit improvements in Toronto.

But if the TTC returned to the original environmental studies for surface LRT – part of former mayor David Miller's Transit City plan – there would be no delay, Stintz told the Star.

http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1119628--ttc-chair-breaks-with-ford-over-tunnel-for-eglinton-lrt

Edited January 23, 2012 by mentalfloss

[CPCFTW]

http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1119628--ttc-chair-breaks-with-ford-over-tunnel-for-eglinton-lrt

Stintz is an ignoramus. By the time this thing gets finished, there will be plenty of traffic judging by Toronto's rate of growth.

[Black Dog]

Stintz is an ignoramus. By the time this thing gets finished, there will be plenty of traffic judging by Toronto's rate of growth.

Maybe if they built more, better transit there would be less traffic.

Maybe if they didn't put all their eggs in one underground basket they could build more and better transit.

[Black Dog]

Speaking of ignorami:

Ford: subways for all!

Commuters on Finch won't be shut out of mass transit, Mayor Rob Ford vowed Thursday, promising to build them their own subway in a decade.

"We're going to improve the bus service (on Finch) and they will get subways within 10 years," Ford said, while announcing plans to extend the Sheppard line east and west for $4.2 billion.

"I committed to Sheppard and I'm delivering what I committed to do. Within 10 years, the people on Finch will get a subway, too."

That would be the Sheppard subway line that is stil unfunded. But no funding? No problem!

The city though, has no cash to spend and plans to essentially borrow the $4.2 billion cost of Sheppard and pay it back through a combination of development fees and taxes on those new properties along the line.

Ford declined to take questions on why - after campaigning against runaway spending and high city debt - he is now proposing to borrow billions for a subway.

"I'm not quite sure where taxpayers' money is coming in when we're using private money," Ford said.

"All the details will have to come out but it will be built with private money."

Just like Sheppard will be...er...wait...

Chong said the preliminary business case, now expected to be made public in February, will find it’s possible to get construction started on the $4.7 billion line through public-private partnerships.

But it would take one year and a budget of between $5 million and $10 million to hire people to do “detailed research and analysis” to craft a full business case that could entice investment from banks, developers, other private businesses and senior levels of government, he estimated.

Even then, Chong estimates private funding would pay only 10 to 30 per cent of the total, leaving the city on the hook for billions. Ford has insisted the private sector will primarily fund his promise. The province will contribute surplus funds up to $600 million from the Eglinton line.