Job Numbers Are Out

[cybercoma]

It's that they won't go to where the jobs are and won't adjust their compensation to economic reality. As a result we have u employment.

It's not that simple to move your entire family and all of their belongings to another province if you can't find a job. In any case, what if they don't want to leave the community and social supports that they have where they are? They shouldn't have to and it's not their fault that there is no work in their town province. The fact is many people have adjusted their compensation, as you say, and have every right to be pissed about the "economic reality". The reality is that they're expected to make less, while the top 1% are earning more than ever. They don't have to like it and the fact still remains they're unemployed due to circumstances beyond their control. Packing up your family and moving across the country is not exactly something people are freely able to do when they've lost their jobs and are trying to put food on the table. It can cost thousands of dollars.

[Bonam]

It can cost thousands of dollars.

Which is a lot less than the cost of being out of work for more than a few weeks.

[cybercoma]

Which is a lot less than the cost of being out of work for more than a few weeks.

That's a lot of money when you don't have it.

[bush_cheney2004]

That's a lot of money when you don't have it.

There is certainly no shortage of excuses, while others do make it work.

[cybercoma]

There is certainly no shortage of excuses, while others do make it work.

Obviously, some aren't and the excuses are that it's outside economies, yadda yadda yadda. Well, those are the excuses when people criticize the government for aggregate job losses. The people that can't find jobs aren't affected by that though, right? They're just lazy bums.

[bush_cheney2004]

Obviously, some aren't and the excuses are that it's outside economies, yadda yadda yadda. Well, those are the excuses when people criticize the government for aggregate job losses. The people that can't find jobs aren't affected by that though, right? They're just lazy bums.

They are lazy bums if they refuse to exhaust all avenues for employment, including relocating to where there are jobs. The "social safety net" only delays their inevitable circumstance, but blaming somebody else commences immediately!

[blueblood]

It's not that simple to move your entire family and all of their belongings to another province if you can't find a job. In any case, what if they don't want to leave the community and social supports that they have where they are? They shouldn't have to and it's not their fault that there is no work in their town province. The fact is many people have adjusted their compensation, as you say, and have every right to be pissed about the "economic reality". The reality is that they're expected to make less, while the top 1% are earning more than ever. They don't have to like it and the fact still remains they're unemployed due to circumstances beyond their control. Packing up your family and moving across the country is not exactly something people are freely able to do when they've lost their jobs and are trying to put food on the table. It can cost thousands of dollars.

So, they don't want the jobs bad enough. It's quite simple, go to where the jobs are, or it's unemployment, that's how it works. The top 1% has adjusted to economic realities, why can't everyone else.

[cybercoma]

So then the jobs numbers dropped last month because people weren't willing to relocate. Is that what you're saying?

[cybercoma]

There was 72,000 less fulltime jobs in this country last month, so those 72,000 people are at fault for not leaving the country to find work?

[blueblood]

So then the jobs numbers dropped last month because people weren't willing to relocate. Is that what you're saying?

Sask has an unemployment rate of 4%. Lots of jobs there. Alberta has billboards advertising rough neck jobs. Manitoba has jobs. That's part of it. The other part is workers having to accept the reality they are competing with Asia for manufacturing jobs.

[cybercoma]

Sask has an unemployment rate of 4%. Lots of jobs there. Alberta has billboards advertising rough neck jobs. Manitoba has jobs. That's part of it. The other part is workers having to accept the reality they are competing with Asia for manufacturing jobs.

The country lost 72,000. That's very nice that unemployment is that low in those provinces. Overall, the country still lost jobs. You say we're competing with manufacturing in Asia, so does that mean those 72000 lazy bums should move to Asia to get work?

[blueblood]

The country lost 72,000. That's very nice that unemployment is that low in those provinces. Overall, the country still lost jobs. You say we're competing with manufacturing in Asia, so does that mean those 72000 lazy bums should move to Asia to get work?

The cost of labor needs to drop. In the late 90's Canada had a lower cost of labor an the USA and was a beneficiary of that. Our workers need to be more flexible. It's pretty hard to find work in Atlantic Canada when there is no production going on there. Do you suggest that we build the second coming of the great pyramids in Atlantic Canada so that everyone there has high paying jobs?

[cybercoma]

The cost of labor needs to drop. In the late 90's Canada had a lower cost of labor an the USA and was a beneficiary of that. Our workers need to be more flexible. It's pretty hard to find work in Atlantic Canada when there is no production going on there. Do you suggest that we build the second coming of the great pyramids in Atlantic Canada so that everyone there has high paying jobs?

I'm not suggesting anything. You're saying the cost of labour needs to go down, but how? 72000 jobs were lost. This isn't people showing up to interviews and rejecting the job offers because they don't pay enough. In fact, wage labourers have very little opportunity to do this anyway. The labour costs in any case are not the fault of the individuals whose jobs have been lost either.

Instead of suggesting, I'm asking questions. I'm asking what do we do about the 72000 jobs that are lost and thus 72000 unemployed Canadians? We're talking a net loss here, not 72000 jobs were lost so move to Alberta and go get one. I'm also pointing out that it's hypocritical to say that these job losses are the result of external forces on the Canadian economy in one breath, the turn around and blame the workers for not finding work that is non-existent because of external forces on the Canadian economy.

[blueblood]

I'm not suggesting anything. You're saying the cost of labour needs to go down, but how? 72000 jobs were lost. This isn't people showing up to interviews and rejecting the job offers because they don't pay enough. In fact, wage labourers have very little opportunity to do this anyway. The labour costs in any case are not the fault of the individuals whose jobs have been lost either.

Instead of suggesting, I'm asking questions. I'm asking what do we do about the 72000 jobs that are lost and thus 72000 unemployed Canadians? We're talking a net loss here, not 72000 jobs were lost so move to Alberta and go get one. I'm also pointing out that it's hypocritical to say that these job losses are the result of external forces on the Canadian economy in one breath, the turn around and blame the workers for not finding work that is non-existent because of external forces on the Canadian economy.

We have jobs being created en masse in other parts of the world. There is a demand for production, why can't we make ourselves competitive and join in the party? Perhaps it's time to compete...

[cybercoma]

That's nice and all, but how does it help those 72000 people that lost their job. Are you suggesting now that they get a work visa in a foreign country and apply for citizenship there? Is it really that easy that you just pack up the minivan and go get a job in the US? Or how about going to China and working there.

It's quite ridiculous that some of you are so ideological that you can't even bring yourselves to admit a simple truth: some people find themselves without work through no fault of their own. Period. Those people often times still have families to support.

All of that's not even to mention other barriers to employment that keep particular people from getting jobs even when they are available. I'm not even asking that this extensively researched truth be accepted.

It's pretty ironic that we'll blame aggregate job losses on all sorts of things outside the state's control, but blame individuals that are unemployed for their own situations. It's a hypocritical line of arguing that people on the Right often use, when even the Conservative Party themselves acknowledge these truisms.

[punked]

Stimulus isn't supposed to have lasting effects, other than improved infrastructure. Stimulus is simply a stop gap to help the economy coast through difficult times. Canada should really be out of difficult times now, but because of outside factors, we're not doing as well as we otherwise would be.

SmallC you usually know more of what you are talking about. Why should Canada be out of difficult times now? Is it because the World economy is faltering? Is it because the countries we export to are slowing their imports? How about the falling price of energy or natural gas reserves being tapped in our biggest energy market to provide more domestic energy production? What makes you say Canada should be out of difficult times besides it has been X amount of time from the time this thing started till now? Time as a measurement has little to do with strengthening economies, it isn't a factor.

[bush_cheney2004]

That's nice and all, but how does it help those 72000 people that lost their job. Are you suggesting now that they get a work visa in a foreign country and apply for citizenship there? Is it really that easy that you just pack up the minivan and go get a job in the US? Or how about going to China and working there.

Yet millions of other nationals do this on a routine basis. I work with many of them.

It's quite ridiculous that some of you are so ideological that you can't even bring yourselves to admit a simple truth: some people find themselves without work through no fault of their own. Period. Those people often times still have families to support.

OK...so how long should they keep peeing in the self pity pot? "No fault of their own" does little to move someone forward. Why do you insist on focusing on this?

All of that's not even to mention other barriers to employment that keep particular people from getting jobs even when they are available. I'm not even asking that this extensively researched truth be accepted.

Such barriers are always present....it changes nothing.

It's pretty ironic that we'll blame aggregate job losses on all sorts of things outside the state's control, but blame individuals that are unemployed for their own situations. It's a hypocritical line of arguing that people on the Right often use, when even the Conservative Party themselves acknowledge these truisms.

Being stuck in the blame game is part of the problem....choose to stay a victim or move on.

[Bonam]

It's quite ridiculous that some of you are so ideological that you can't even bring yourselves to admit a simple truth: some people find themselves without work through no fault of their own.

Why does it matter whose "fault" it is? If someone loses their job, the rational course of action is to look for a new one (unless they're ready to retire), and if that search takes one to another city, province, or country, then such options should also be considered. In any case, moving around from place to place makes for a more interesting and varied life.

The fact that you think people are somehow entitled to, or even benefit from, living in the same town their whole life and being handed a job there forever makes no sense to me. When an oil well runs dry, the people working there move. When the forest is chopped down, the lumberjacks go elsewhere. When the mine runs out, the miners move on. Why should it be any different for manufacturing jobs? When the products made at the factory are no longer in demand and it shuts down, why loaf around there instead of moving on with your life?

Human civilization is not some static changeless construct. It is constantly changing, evolving, advancing. People have to change with it.

[maple_leafs182]

In order to remain competitive we need to cut taxes and possibly wages. I am all for cutting taxes but that means we need to shrink the size of our government and I don't think we are willing to do that, even the conservatives love our big Canadian government.

[cybercoma]

Why does it matter whose "fault" it is?

It matters because it changes the idea of whether or not a person deserves help.

If someone loses their job, the rational course of action is to look for a new one (unless they're ready to retire), and if that search takes one to another city, province, or country, then such options should also be considered. In any case, moving around from place to place makes for a more interesting and varied life.

You're right, but when the country has thousands of jobs less than it had the previous month that means there are thousands of people out of work and less jobs for them to find. The unemployment numbers refer to people that are ready and willing to work and are actively searching cannot find employment. The rational course is, of course, to look for a new one (retirees aren't included in the unemployed category); however, we're talking about jobs being eliminated. It's important because ideologues look at someone who is unemployed and tell them to quit complaining, quit being lazy and go find a job. Yet, there are less jobs than people actively looking for work. It smacks of ignorance that trolls on internet forums will post ad nauseum about these people being lazy freeloaders when the fact remains that there aren't enough jobs to go around. When the numbers come out to reflect this, it seems those same people are quick to explain away the rising unemployment number in terms of systemic problems. However, when anyone frames unemployment in terms of those same systemic problems, the ideologues turn it around and say that people can't find work because they're lazy or unwilling to move or want too much money.

The fact that you think people are somehow entitled to, or even benefit from, living in the same town their whole life and being handed a job there forever makes no sense to me. When an oil well runs dry, the people working there move. When the forest is chopped down, the lumberjacks go elsewhere. When the mine runs out, the miners move on. Why should it be any different for manufacturing jobs? When the products made at the factory are no longer in demand and it shuts down, why loaf around there instead of moving on with your life?

Manufacturing firms don't necessarily need to be in any particular town. It's not the unemployed's fault that these firms have packed up and left the country. Now, those same people need to find new jobs or be re-educated to perform different jobs (which would actually take them out of the unemployment numbers) because their jobs are gone. However, that's the rub. Those jobs are gone. There are no new jobs. We lost nearly 72,000. New jobs need to be created and when they are created that does not necessarily mean the same people who lost their jobs are going to be qualified for the new ones. Again, it's not about them being entitled to staying where they are, but we're talking about jobs being lost across the board last month. And it's not just about last month, it's about the fact that there are less jobs than people looking for jobs. Sure they should move around the country, but it doesn't matter where they go because there will always be a deficit. The only other answer is that they leave the country and this is quite difficult for the average person. Most countries don't like foreigners coming in and taking their jobs when they already have people there that can do them.

Human civilization is not some static changeless construct. It is constantly changing, evolving, advancing. People have to change with it.

Absolutely. As a result of that change, at any given point in time there will be many people that cannot find a job because it's simply not available to them due to those changes. If we do not pool our resources to help those people out, it will inevitably cause instability. As technology further advances and we need less people to do work, coupled with jobs being exported as well, the number of people with meaningful jobs, those being jobs that allow them to support themselves and their family full-time, will continue to drop. The actual unemployment numbers don't reflect this. If someone worked in a die shop making $21/hr and full benefits, got laid off and is now sweeping floors fulltime at a hospital as an employee of a subcontractor making $10/hr with no benefits, they are fully employed. This is not reflected in the unemployment numbers.

This is why the rising income gap is so important. The middle class is being gutted. Their disappearance is a serious problem. What's going to happen to the top of the pyramid when there's fewer and fewer people left beneath them to buy their products?

It's a trick question. They're no longer creating products. They're moving capital and making money by gambling on the world markets. The disparity will continue to grow until there is a violent revolt by the have-nots.

That is unless we can convince the capital class what the generations before them knew. They need to protect their capital and ensure stability by making sure that those below them have all the supports they need to succeed and be productive members of society.

[jacee]

The cost of labor needs to drop.

Unh ... NO!

You are stuck in the '90's mantra.

Today the issue is not workers' wages, which have dropped far behind.

NOPE ... today the issue is the fact that the 1% criminal parasites are sucking the wealth from the rest of us for no valid reason other than greed.

And btw, a 1%'r is defined by accumulated wealth, not income.

[Smallc]

But if you take the Stimulus dollars out the Economy is shrinking.

The stimulus dollars are gone. It's still growing.

[Smallc]

Yes there is, let them rise and let's take our medicine.

No, that's not what needs to happen, and you won't hear anyone with any economic knowledge advocate that.

[Bonam]

However, when anyone frames unemployment in terms of those same systemic problems, the ideologues turn it around and say that people can't find work because they're lazy or unwilling to move or want too much money.

The unemployment rate in Canada is, what, 7%? That means 93% of people managed to find jobs. The 7% that can't find jobs... why can't they find them? Basically, employers found them less qualified/appealing to hire than 93% of the other people out there.

Again, it's not about them being entitled to staying where they are, but we're talking about jobs being lost across the board last month. And it's not just about last month, it's about the fact that there are less jobs than people looking for jobs.

The economy is never at 100% employment, even during the best times of rapid economic growth. But there are always jobs to be had for those that are willing to do them. Take a look at job postings some time. There are tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of open job postings. Some are open for months, many remain open until the employers give up and decide to not bother. The people with the skills to fill the jobs aren't applying.

Are you sure there really are more people looking for jobs than there are jobs? Do you have any stats on the number of open job postings?

Sure they should move around the country, but it doesn't matter where they go because there will always be a deficit. The only other answer is that they leave the country and this is quite difficult for the average person.

That's hardly the only other answer. People could *gasp* start a business. A shocking proposition I know.

Most countries don't like foreigners coming in and taking their jobs when they already have people there that can do them.

Unlike Canada apparently, where immigration rates continue to break record highs year after year despite an alleged lack of jobs?

Absolutely. As a result of that change, at any given point in time there will be many people that cannot find a job because it's simply not available to them due to those changes. If we do not pool our resources to help those people out, it will inevitably cause instability.

We already do that. EI.

As technology further advances and we need less people to do work, coupled with jobs being exported as well, the number of people with meaningful jobs, those being jobs that allow them to support themselves and their family full-time, will continue to drop. The actual unemployment numbers don't reflect this. If someone worked in a die shop making $21/hr and full benefits, got laid off and is now sweeping floors fulltime at a hospital as an employee of a subcontractor making $10/hr with no benefits, they are fully employed. This is not reflected in the unemployment numbers.

More technology means more jobs, not less. Just different kinds of jobs. As society becomes more advanced and more productive, entire new fields of work that never used to exist open up. We have a dire shortage of people with the skills to work the kinds of jobs that are being created. These jobs still pay solid middle class - upper middle class wages. Where are the people that can do them?

Being a grunt that hits something sliding by on an assembly line with a hammer just isn't gonna cut it anymore. Someone can do that in China for 1/100th the price. To have a meaningful job that securely pays for a comfortable Western lifestyle, you need to have something of value to offer. People with in-demand skills are making more than ever. All the skilled technicians and machinists we deal with are making six figures (and without being part of any union).

[jacee]

Jobs out west, why don't they want them?

Workers back east ... why don't they come and get them?

I know one reason why Alberta is crying for qualified workers ... because they are not producing them.

The high school dropout rate is very high, and only half of the graduates go on to postsecondary.

If Alberta needs workers, maybe they should try training some of their own.

I saw that info on tv this week ... an oil company HR person going on and on about the need for workers. When the interviewer gave her the info about Alberta dropouts, she was absolutely STUNNED ... had no idea!

What kind of employers don't even know that kind of info?

Pretty pathetic ...