Greece to hold referendum on debt deal

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2011

Too bad they can't fully capitalize on that with their ridiculous export taxes and farmer strikes in response to that. Oh well their pain is my gain.

Don't you know it....soybeans are all the rage these days. The USA, Brazil, and Argentina are kicking out a lot of soybeans, and many others are ramping up. The ag sector looks very bright!

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2011

Nod bad. It encouraged foreign investment, encouraged tourism, and encouraged domestic production, and exports, and it forced us to stop trying to prop up the economy with bank credit.

That's because monetary policy alone cannot carry the day....fiscal policy matters too, as Canada found out in spades back then and the USA is finding out now.

wyly · November 4, 2011

Nod bad. It encouraged foreign investment, encouraged tourism, and encouraged domestic production, and exports, and it forced us to stop trying to prop up the economy with bank credit.

but sucked being a tourist in europe, much better now

maple_leafs182 · November 4, 2011

Why not just look at how well the first Greece bail out worked...why do you guys think this one will have a different outcome?

blueblood · November 4, 2011

Don't you know it....soybeans are all the rage these days. The USA, Brazil, and Argentina are kicking out a lot of soybeans, and many others are ramping up. The ag sector looks very bright!

Actually all of veg oil is hot hot hot right now. However, that party is only going to last for about 3-4 yrs. When those little palm trees in SIngapore/Indonesia/Malaysia reach maturity, soybeans and veg oil will cool off because palm trees are very productive and require very little inputs. Corn still looks good. Wheat is meh. Cattle are gangbusters right now, I'm fire saling the cows. The only wildcard is growth in asia and their demand for meat. Soybeans also benefit from the increase in meat demand because soybeans are crushed as much for soy meal as soy oil.

With Ag being so hot and an extreme labour shortage, why don't those lazy occupiers head out to the country. Custom harvesting outfits are taking people with ZERO experience.

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2011

Why not just look at how well the first Greece bail out worked...why do you guys think this one will have a different outcome?

It's not about Greece so much as the rest of the EU bottom falling out (i.e. Italy, Portugal, Spain). If this patch job does not stop the bleeding, first the euro will collapse then the EU will go back to being a meaningless party in Brussels.

wyly · November 4, 2011

Why not just look at how well the first Greece bail out worked...why do you guys think this one will have a different outcome?

because they didn't cut back on spending like they should have...but your right they may not do it this time either...

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2011

....With Ag being so hot and an extreme labour shortage, why don't those lazy occupiers head out to the country. Custom harvesting outfits are taking people with ZERO experience.

Ag is literally hot because it was 'solar' long before we called it that.

maple_leafs182 · November 4, 2011

It's not about Greece so much as the rest of the EU bottom falling out (i.e. Italy, Portugal, Spain). If this patch job does not stop the bleeding, first the euro will collapse then the EU will go back to being a meaningless party in Brussels.

I don't see that as a problem, I see that as more of a solution. I like the idea of national sovereignty, would you want a North American Union?

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2011

I don't see that as a problem, I see that as more of a solution. I like the idea of national sovereignty, would you want a North American Union?

The USA already has its union, and thousands died to make sure it stays that way. The NAU pales in comparison or import (pun intended). Just when it looked bad for the Americans, Europe figured out a way to hose it up worse.

maple_leafs182 · November 4, 2011

The USA already has its union, and thousands died to make sure it stays that way. The NAU pales in comparison or import (pun intended). Just when it looked bad for the Americans, Europe figured out a way to hose it up worse.

Your Federal government was also intended to have limited powers. If the EU had limited powers there wouldn't be a problem.

I think US is in worse shape then Europe, it is the most indebted nation in the history of the world. The only reason Europe is getting the headlines right now is because its bills have came due.

wyly · November 4, 2011

Your Federal government was also intended to have limited powers. If the EU had limited powers there wouldn't be a problem.

I think US is in worse shape then Europe, it is the most indebted nation in the history of the world. The only reason Europe is getting the headlines right now is because its bills have came due.

lumping fiscally irresponible european nations with those nations that have their finances in order is a unfair generalization...

dre · November 4, 2011

but sucked being a tourist in europe, much better now

True! Sucked for folks trying to run an NHL team paying salaries in US dollars to!

Im not saying low currency value is good or bad. That very much depends on your perspective and which industry you work in, and how you spend your money.

I was just trying to explain why that cycle works the way it does.

Edited November 4, 2011 by dre

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2011

Your Federal government was also intended to have limited powers. If the EU had limited powers there wouldn't be a problem.

The EU is very limited politically...in its rush to compete economically with the US and Asia as unified block with a unified currency, they forgot unified government.

I think US is in worse shape then Europe, it is the most indebted nation in the history of the world. The only reason Europe is getting the headlines right now is because its bills have came due.

Europe won't be bailing out the USA, but the USA has already done so for European (and Canadian) banks (i.e. TARP), and may contribute more at the largest share of the IMF. The Americans can act much more quickly with a single federal government, and as another member pointed out long ago, has ample reserve taxing capacity to service its debts.

This isn't the first time that Europe has caused a serious problem!

dre · November 4, 2011

The EU is very limited politically...in its rush to compete economically with the US and Asia as unified block with a unified currency, they forgot unified government.

Europe won't be bailing out the USA, but the USA has already done so for European (and Canadian) banks (i.e. TARP), and may contribute more at the largest share of the IMF. The Americans can act much more quickly with a single federal government, and as another member pointed out long ago, has ample reserve taxing capacity to service its debts.

This isn't the first time that Europe has caused a serious problem!

Actually the US bailout (biggest in the history of the human race at 15 Trillion dollars may indeed be partially financed in part by europeans. Same goes for Tarp.

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2011

Actually the US bailout (biggest in the history of the human race at 15 Trillion dollars may indeed be partially financed in part by europeans. Same goes for Tarp.

"May" doesn't equal "was". The US government took active steps to prevent the banking system from collapsing, and that included many Euro banks. Go back and check the list if you don't believe me.

The human race is the biggest in history too....big deal.

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2011

...I was just trying to explain why that cycle works the way it does.

..and if that was the whole story, Mexico would be a paradise outside of the tourist destinations.

dre · November 4, 2011

"May" doesn't equal "was". The US government took active steps to prevent the banking system from collapsing, and that included many Euro banks. Go back and check the list if you don't believe me.

The human race is the biggest in history too....big deal.

Oh I believe you. I know tarp funds made it into a bunch of different countries. Im just pointing out that the money the US government used for that bailout came from bailout of the US government thats being financed by the rest of the world.

EDIT: I had a look just for fun, and some of those European countries ARE big contributors to the massive bailout the US has been living on for a few decades.

The US treasury classifies France, Germany, Norway, Sweden, Ireland, and Belgium all as "major holders" of US debt.

You can send them each a thank you note (which is worth about the same as your promise to repay all that debt)

Edited November 4, 2011 by dre

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2011

Oh I believe you. I know tarp funds made it into a bunch of different countries. Im just pointing out that the money the US government used for that bailout came from bailout of the US government thats being financed by the rest of the world.

Oh right...the US that has been bankrupt since Nixon shock. A majority of US debt is held by Americans. But do tell us all about the $15 trillion from China and Japan....nobody will bother to call you on it.

dre · November 4, 2011

Oh right...the US that has been bankrupt since Nixon shock. A majority of US debt is held by Americans. But do tell us all about the $15 trillion from China and Japan....nobody will bother to call you on it.

Why would anyone need to call me on that. Iv pointed out on multiple occasions that most US debt is held by US citizens.

Oh right...the US that has been bankrupt since Nixon shock.

Well i guess that depends on how you define bankruptcy! You have YOUR definition. And the rest of the human race and I have ours

bush_cheney2004 · November 4, 2011

Why would anyone need to call me on that. Iv pointed out on multiple occasions that most US debt is held by US citizens.

Because US debt has never been more popular....at home....and abroad.

Well i guess that depends on how you define bankruptcy! You have YOUR definition. And the rest of the human race and I have ours

You speak often for the entire rest of the human race? I think not.

maple_leafs182 · November 5, 2011

The interest rates would be set by government legislation that creates spending, since that usury was now the government primary source of income. It it wanted to spend more it would have to raise the rates, or the economy would have to grow (which means more borrowing and more usury). This is a good thing because when the government spends, taxpayers will be more tightly coupled to the wealth that backs that spending. They will know that if they vote for big new programs their mortgage rates will go up.

Right now this linkage doesnt even exist. Governments can spend gigantic new programs into creation without raising taxes, and while keep interest rates at near zero. Theres no incentive at all to live within your means and thats why almost no countries have.

Having said that you are right. The government could still mismanage this system. If they issued too much credit or too little credit then you would get price instability.

Then we would be dependent on the government to regulate the banking industry. When we give governments power, people always find a way to manipulate that power to benefit themselves. It is to easy to influence and corrupt a government. I think it would only be a matter of years before that sort of system corrupts. Also, the government is inefficient, I can't see the government doing too good of a job at running the banking/monetary system.

With the free market we would be the ones regulating the market. If governments didn't insure bank deposits, we would pay attention to what banks would are doing with our money. We would take our money out of the banks doing risky loans because we don't want to see our savings disappear.

In a free market there would not be a fixed rates to get a loan, based on the conditions of the market and the risk of the loan, the banks would adjust their rates accordingly.

In a free economy, we wouldn't be forced to use a single currency. We would be able to use whatever we wanted as money. As long as people see value in it and are willing to accept it in the market place, that's all that matters. It would be easier for our money system and economy to evolve.

All in all, I really do think we would do a better job with a free market then for us to give up that responsibility and give it to the government.

maple_leafs182 · November 5, 2011

The EU is very limited politically...in its rush to compete economically with the US and Asia as unified block with a unified currency, they forgot unified government.

It looks like it or something has quite a bit of power since it seems like it is able to force the Greek government to take a bailout without the consent of the people.

Europe won't be bailing out the USA, but the USA has already done so for European (and Canadian) banks (i.e. TARP), and may contribute more at the largest share of the IMF. The Americans can act much more quickly with a single federal government, and as another member pointed out long ago, has ample reserve taxing capacity to service its debts.
This isn't the first time that Europe has caused a serious problem!

If America had ample reserve taxing capacity to service its debts then the Fed wouldn't be printing money to buy up its debt.

All America exports is dollars. The only reason it can export so many dollars is because it's the worlds reserve currency, countries need it for oil. Trust me, this can't go on, other countries won't accept those dollars forever. It looks like a currency war has already started, every nation is devaluing its currency to remain competitive.

wyly · November 5, 2011

It looks like it or something has quite a bit of power since it seems like it is able to force the Greek government to take a bailout without the consent of the people.

power? na it just took an immediate threat to cut off all funds(instant bankruptcy) and ejection from the EU to wake up the grekos....

If America had ample reserve taxing capacity to service its debts then the Fed wouldn't be printing money to buy up its debt.
All America exports is dollars. The only reason it can export so many dollars is because it's the worlds reserve currency, countries need it for oil. Trust me, this can't go on, other countries won't accept those dollars forever. It looks like a currency war has already started, every nation is devaluing its currency to remain competitive.

there is another side to it as well, global equalization...the rest of the world is improving it's standard of living and the US is falling as the dollar no longer buys what once did...the good old days when the power of american dollars could buy foreign products cheap is disappearing, those foreign workers want that same standard of living americans enjoyed...and that applies to canadians as well...

bush_cheney2004 · November 5, 2011

It looks like it or something has quite a bit of power since it seems like it is able to force the Greek government to take a bailout without the consent of the people.

The people are ungovernable either way in Greece....they will not be able to comply with the deal anyway.

If America had ample reserve taxing capacity to service its debts then the Fed wouldn't be printing money to buy up its debt.

Two different ideas...America can raise taxes if it decides to do so. Greece can't save itself that way...it's too late in the game.

All America exports is dollars. The only reason it can export so many dollars is because it's the worlds reserve currency, countries need it for oil. Trust me, this can't go on, other countries won't accept those dollars forever. It looks like a currency war has already started, every nation is devaluing its currency to remain competitive.

I've heard that my entire life...the death of the US dollar. It's the world's reserve currency for a reason. As for exports, the USA ranks third in exports behind China and Germany.