Greece to hold referendum on debt deal

[dre]

If we as a society want national services of some sort, ie medical care, pensions, roads, welfare, schools, police), we have to pay for them. That means giving money to the government in order to provide those services. As long as we're willing to fund the government at the level of cost of those services there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The Greeks' problem was they wanted the services but didn't want to pay for them.

This is also the Americans' problem.

We could fund those things with usury if the government issued currency instead of giving it to the banks to issue for free. And have a decent ammount of services with no taxation at all. The is how the government/economy of colonial pennsylvania worked.

But yup youre right. Greece did this to itself. Thats why accepting this deal is a not a good idea. It leaves their credit intact. If they default, they will be forced to reconcile spending with revenue.

The austerity measures have some dangerous stuff in them as well. Not only to they contain a 5th tranche of debt that Greece is never going to be able to pay back, they force Greece to sell off a number of state owned companies that that actually generate revenue... so they lose some of their capacity to service this debt.

[blueblood]

We could fund those things with usury if the government issued currency instead of giving it to the banks to issue for free. And have a decent ammount of services with no taxation at all. The is how the government/economy of colonial pennsylvania worked.

But yup youre right. Greece did this to itself. Thats why accepting this deal is a not a good idea. It leaves their credit intact. If they default, they will be forced to reconcile spending with revenue.

The austerity measures have some dangerous stuff in them as well. Not only to they contain a 5th tranche of debt that Greece is never going to be able to pay back, they force Greece to sell off a number of state owned companies that that actually generate revenue... so they lose some of their capacity to service this debt.

Government based bank that has taxation replaced with interest payments and deposits. The interest rates on the accounts would be microscopic, the interest rates on the borrowed money would be outrageous to fund all of these gov't programs. There is no incentive to be a depositor, and not only that if it were mandatory to put all the money you earned in said bank, you wouldn't be able to access as much as you wanted because all the people with low income would be taking out loans. It would essentially be a 100% tax, and the incentive to produce would be shot down. This is a bad idea, and that's why Washington/Jefferson et. al threw it under the bus.

[olp1fan]

you're not mentioning the history greece and germany have

nazi germany occupied parts of Greece, 300 000 died of hunger alone in Athens

60,000 Greek Jews were killed

now they see another type of German occupation

They might have reacted better if it were France they owed

This won't end good

German troops will re occupy Athens by the end of the year

Edited November 3, 2011 by olp1fan

[Bonam]

German troops will re occupy Athens by the end of the year

[dre]

Government based bank that has taxation replaced with interest payments and deposits. The interest rates on the accounts would be microscopic, the interest rates on the borrowed money would be outrageous to fund all of these gov't programs. There is no incentive to be a depositor, and not only that if it were mandatory to put all the money you earned in said bank, you wouldn't be able to access as much as you wanted because all the people with low income would be taking out loans. It would essentially be a 100% tax, and the incentive to produce would be shot down. This is a bad idea, and that's why Washington/Jefferson et. al threw it under the bus.

They didnt throw it under the bus. They gave CONGRESS the right to issue money. Every single dollar in the economy is backed by the government and the producers in the economy. If theres going to be a usury why the hell should anyone get it besides the people that back the actual money. These banks do almost nothing to justify what is charged. Since we back the dollars that usury should be spend on things like infrastructure and government services.

There is no incentive to be a depositor.

Yes there is. Safe keeping and facilitating transactions.

Youre still confused about how our banking system works. Almost NONE of the money that gets lent out comes from deposits. The Banks dont have the money they lend you in their posession, they simply conjure it up out of thin air and write it into your account.

How on earth is it justified to collect trillions of dollars in usury when the stuff you are lending out isnt even yours? Usury comes from a time when the banks made their loans entirely with depositors money. That is not at all how commercial fed backed banks operate today at all.

We dont need these banks to build a strong economy. All they do is guarantee a perpetual cycle of increasing debt.

Edited November 3, 2011 by dre

[wyly]

you're not mentioning the history greece and germany have

nazi germany occupied parts of Greece, 300 000 died of hunger alone in Athens

60,000 Greek Jews were killed

now they see another type of German occupation

They might have reacted better if it were France they owed

This won't end good

German troops will re occupy Athens by the end of the year

from my understanding it's mainly french banks that are owed...

[dre]

from my understanding it's mainly french banks that are owed...

Owed WHAT exactly is what I wonder. How much actual real property was backing that debt, and how much of it was just entries a banker typed into a computer?

[blueblood]

They didnt throw it under the bus. They gave CONGRESS the right to issue money. Every single dollar in the economy is backed by the government and the producers in the economy. If theres going to be a usury why the hell should anyone get it besides the people that back the actual money. These banks do almost nothing to justify what is charged. Since we back the dollars that usury should be spend on things like infrastructure and government services.

Youre still confused about how are banking system works. Almost NONE of the money that gets lent out comes from deposits. The Banks dont have the money they lend you in their posession, they simply conjure it up out of thin air and write it into your account.

How on earth is it justified to collect trillions of dollars in usury when the stuff you are lending out isnt even yours? Usury comes from a time when the banks made their loans entirely with depositors money. That is not at all how commercial fed backed banks operate today at all.

So you'd rather have the government write it out of thin air? That's even bigger trouble. They only conjure up the money when interests rates are low and the fed engages in open market operations. What about when interest rates rise and there is more savings, with fraction. Reserve banking, they can use people's savings instead of solely the fed. With your idea, it's all arbitrary based upon some bureaucrat with politicians heavily influencing him.

[blueblood]

from my understanding it's mainly french banks that are owed...

Correct hence the downgrade they received previously.

[bush_cheney2004]

They didnt throw it under the bus. They gave CONGRESS the right to issue money.

The US Congress does not "issue money". Congress created a US Treasury Department that is an executive department of the federal government. In Canadaspeak, that is like a ministry.

[wyly]

France and Germany should take over Greece by force... cannot let Greece take down the whole union

and the rest of the world with it

This is action I'd be good with

force is no longer needed...the greeks won't get any more bailouts unless they agree to accept the terms...greece will run out of money before any referendum, I guess we'll see how independent they want to be when they wake up one morning and their jobs are gone...

[olp1fan]

from my understanding it's mainly french banks that are owed...

Then why are the greeks panicking over a german occupation?

have you seen the newspaper articles from greece

Edited November 3, 2011 by olp1fan

[olp1fan]

you laugh now but merkel and sarkozy are waging economic war on greece

and greece on the EU

do you think its gonna end peacefully?

this is the start of a world war

Edited November 3, 2011 by olp1fan

[dre]

So you'd rather have the government write it out of thin air? That's even bigger trouble. They only conjure up the money when interests rates are low and the fed engages in open market operations. What about when interest rates rise and there is more savings, with fraction. Reserve banking, they can use people's savings instead of solely the fed. With your idea, it's all arbitrary based upon some bureaucrat with politicians heavily influencing him.

So you'd rather have the government write it out of thin air? That's even bigger trouble.

Thats already what happens anyways. The government just does it through the banks.

They only conjure up the money when interests rates are low and the fed engages in open market operations.

No they conjure up the money when they make EVERY SINGLE LOAN. In most cases the bank capitalizes less than 10% of the mortgage and the rest is monetary expansion.

95% of all currency in circulation was created this way.

Thats why youre defending our banking system... You dont know how it works. It is the biggest act of corporate welfare in the history of the world.

[olp1fan]

Just wait until Cameron decides to go to a referendum to get UK out of E.U

shiat will be crazy

[bush_cheney2004]

this is the start of a world war

Get a grip...they are all members of NATO.

[blueblood]

Thats already what happens anyways. The government just does it through the banks.

No they conjure up the money when they make EVERY SINGLE LOAN. In most cases the bank capitalizes less than 10% of the mortgage and the rest is monetary expansion.

95% of all currency in circulation was created this way.

Thats why youre defending our banking system... You dont know how it works. It is the biggest act of corporate welfare in the history of the world.

At least with the banks their stock/bondholder can at least benefit. With the gov't it goes into a black hole. That one difference is why private enterprise outperforms gov't.

That banking system has allowed us the standard of living today, perhaps if it wasn't abused everyone would be better off. I know how the banking system works, that's why Im not in debt and if interest rates take off I'm in a good spot.

[olp1fan]

Get a grip...they are all members of NATO.

as if that matters when it all comes down to it

when the EU falls there will be war

[blueblood]

you laugh now but merkel and sarkozy are waging economic war on greece

and greece on the EU

do you think its gonna end peacefully?

this is the start of a world war

And Greece is going to do what to France and Germany and how are they going to pay for it?

[wyly]

Then why are the greeks panicking over a german occupation?

have you seen the newspaper articles from greece

germany is quite likely the most pacifist country on the planet, they have absolutely zero inclination toward war...

[wyly]

And Greece is going to do what to France and Germany and how are they going to pay for it?

greece is going to ask for a loan from the EU so they can go to war with germany and france...

[maple_leafs182]

At least with the banks their stock/bondholder can at least benefit. With the gov't it goes into a black hole. That one difference is why private enterprise outperforms gov't.

That banking system has allowed us the standard of living today, perhaps if it wasn't abused everyone would be better off. I know how the banking system works, that's why Im not in debt and if interest rates take off I'm in a good spot.

The banking/monetary system is the reason why the world is going to shit, we need to change it. Regulating it threw the government won't work because as you know, the government is incompetent. The best way to regulate the banking system is to regulate it threw a free market. What we have now is a totalitarian economy with central banks calling the shots, totalitarianism doesn't work.

The economy is kind of in slave mode right now, we need to set it free.

[olp1fan]

And Greece is going to do what to France and Germany and how are they going to pay for it?

not sure but it will be interesting to see it unfold

[msj]

Greece should do what Iceland did - back stop the deposits and let the creditors take the losses.

Dusseldorf never should have lent the money in the first place so too bad, so bad, take the loss.

Will Greece Pull an Iceland?

[dre]

The banking/monetary system is the reason why the world is going to shit, we need to change it. Regulating it threw the government won't work because as you know, the government is incompetent. The best way to regulate the banking system is to regulate it threw a free market. What we have now is a totalitarian economy with central banks calling the shots, totalitarianism doesn't work.

The economy is kind of in slave mode right now, we need to set it free.

Theres really not much to regulate. The government would still create money like it does now, it would just issue it directly to people in the economy that need it and have good credit... or it could spend the money into existance on a road or a bridge and it would enter the economy as wages. Taxes at that point would not be the governments primary source of revenue so they would be much lower. Taxes would probably take on a different function... price stability. If the government had overissued credit it could take some money back out of the economy with taxation. If it had under issued credit they would send out checks instead of bills, and prices would be stable.

It would also make it completely impossible for the government to build up monetary debt.

Have private interests manage our money supply is a really bad idea because the people who control money control pretty much everything. The only private system that wouldnt be a complete monetary prison would be a system of self issued credit.