Long-gun registry to be shot down Thursday

[dre]

what can cost a small fortune and take months (if not year) is the requirement after meeting all said requirements, is the “need” to register firearms

I registered my guns over the internet/phone and it didnt cost me a dime. After all the initial problems implementing the system, it really wasnt much of a hassle at all. Im not sure people like you a lying when they claim the registration costs a small fortune, or if youve just never actually registered a gun.

As for the registry itself Im pretty much on the fence about how useful it is. But since the initial money had already been spent, and the registry is relatively cheap to run once all the kinks got ironed out, I probably would have let it run for a couple of years and tried to collect some real data before I threw all the money spent on it into the garbage.

[Guest Derek L]

I registered my guns over the internet/phone and it didnt cost me a dime. After all the initial problems implementing the system, it really wasnt much of a hassle at all. Im not sure people like you a lying when they claim the registration costs a small fortune, or if youve just never actually registered a gun.

I was referring to the cost of required course and fees to get a PAL/RPAL and hunting licenses…….not actual registration itself. Perhaps read my post again prior to calling me a liar.

As for the registry itself Im pretty much on the fence about how useful it is. But since the initial money had already been spent, and the registry is relatively cheap to run once all the kinks got ironed out, I probably would have let it run for a couple of years and tried to collect some real data before I threw all the money spent on it into the garbage.

What percent of firearms in the country are registered? I don't know, nor does the government.

[dre]

I was referring to the cost of required course and fees to get a PAL/RPAL and hunting licenses…….not actual registration itself. Perhaps read my post again prior to calling me a liar.

What percent of firearms in the country are registered? I don't know, nor does the government.

Fair enough. I apologize for the "lying bit" bit.

The point is... all this whining is over a phone call.

Edited October 23, 2011 by dre

[Guest Derek L]

The point is... all this whining is over a phone call.

Perhaps for some, I don’t like the government having my name and address catalogued next to a list of firearms that I have in my home……….

And accepted

Edited October 23, 2011 by Derek L

[dre]

Perhaps for some, I don’t like the government having my name and address catalogued next to a list of firearms that I have in my home……….

And accepted

I dunno... I have to register all kinds of shit. Houses, cars, boats, guns, machinery, guns, etc. I dont see any real reason to get angry about guns but not all the other government forms you fill out to own stuff.

I wouldnt say Im in love with it, but its not really a big deal either. And registering my guns was a lot easier than registering my cars and trucks, and a lot cheaper as well.

[Guest Derek L]

I dunno... I have to register all kinds of shit. Houses, cars, boats, guns, machinery, guns, etc. I dont see any real reason to get angry about guns but not all the other government forms you fill out to own stuff.

I wouldnt say Im in love with it, but its not really a big deal either. And registering my guns was a lot easier than registering my cars and trucks, and a lot cheaper as well.

My major beef really is it’s a created political ploy to make some of the population feel protected from other segments of the population, that aren’t a threat……….And it’s not effective…I find the implication that legal gun owners are a threat to be insulting……My 40 some odd year old 10/22 is hardly a potential menace on society.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve no problem with the gun licensing and semi required safety courses/knowledge testing prior to ownership…..if anything, it’s a great idea and that has probably saved numerous novice gun owners from hurting themselves and/or others accidentally………..And I don’t have a problem with the regulations on safe storage, sure ~6000 for two safes is steep, but when you have young children in the home it’s only prudent…………And I have no problem with ATTs and the requirement of restricted firearms only being discharged at ranges…..makes sense to me………

But the requirement to know what I legally own and store safely in my own home, to me, is just as intrusive as the government wanting to know how many times I boff my wife or make bacon in my underpants.

Government should answer to us, not the reverse.

[Handsome Rob]

Fair enough. I apologize for the "lying bit" bit.

The point is... all this whining is over a phone call.

The whining is over spending a large sum, however great or small, on an error prone bureaucracy, which has only accomplished the goal of pissing off law abiding citizens and making criminals where none exist.

I don't care if it's a thousand, a million or a billion, that money could be better spent funding health care, social services, overdue military acquisition, paying off the deficit, etc.

A thousand and one of these million dollar programs is the foundation of a deficit. If it saves lives, by all means spend the money, but the registry definitely doesn't fit in that category.

[Handsome Rob]

Perhaps for some, I don’t like the government having my name and address catalogued next to a list of firearms that I have in my home……….

And accepted

Can't say I really care for that database to be published for all either:

http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/features/rapidfire/form.html

[William Ashley]

Can't say I really care for that database to be published for all either:

http://www2.canada.com/ottawacitizen/features/rapidfire/form.html

atleast afterthis bill passes every cop that gets killed as a result of not having intelligence on a gun that would have been registered under the long gun registry or every illegally sold gun sold to a forged PAL or no PAL holder used in a violent crime will be blood on the hands of Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party of Canada.

Well just have to wait to see how bloody their hands get with Canadian blood.

because that other third of gun crimes don't matter right. Why prevent 33% of gun crimes whe you can prevent 0% right? Conservative logic working for everyday Canadians. Cause you know they have their reasons.

hey look liberal party colours worn by the tories, a sign of the future,

Edited October 23, 2011 by William Ashley

[jbg]

atleast afterthis bill passes every cop that gets killed as a result of not having intelligence on a gun that would have been registered under the long gun registry or every illegally sold gun sold to a forged PAL or no PAL holder used in a violent crime will be blood on the hands of Stephen Harper and the Conservative Party of Canada.

Well just have to wait to see how bloody their hands get with Canadian blood.

because that other third of gun crimes don't matter right. Why prevent 33% of gun crimes whe you can prevent 0% right? Conservative logic working for everyday Canadians. Cause you know they have their reasons.

hey look liberal party colours worn by the tories, a sign of the future,

This post is very eloquent and makes lots of good points.

The registration process certainly made Mark Lapine stop, before the massacre, and register his gun. It materially held down the carnage.

[William Ashley]

This post is very eloquent and makes lots of good points.

The registration process certainly made Mark Lapine stop, before the massacre, and register his gun. It materially held down the carnage.

Hey maybe there is a reason why you don't have gun registry shooters in the media, where are the registered guns used in crimes?

Hey look mom it worked.

Think about how successful blockage to underage drinking or drug induced rape would be lessened by bottle and joint registries.

You know making people get licesned to use rather than simply signing up, and not being able to hand on to unregistered users.

This and gun control will make Canada Jesus land,

We don't need 70 Million dollar jails we need 70 million dollar sinner cards.

How many people went to jail as a result of the registry?

No, I said your sinner card.

Just imagine the future with me.

The gun registry is safety for screwing up the other 9 rules and stopping the spread of the breach of the covenant.

Edited October 24, 2011 by William Ashley

[Wild Bill]

Perhaps for some, I don’t like the government having my name and address catalogued next to a list of firearms that I have in my home……….

You might be interested to know that there was a scandal in the GTA a couple of years ago over that very thing!

I confess my memory is not perfect but it had to do with signing for purchasing ammunition. Apparently it was common practice for criminals to legally buy some ammo just to see the signature book, which would show all the names and addresses of those who had signed in before them.

Once you've garnered the addresses of people buying ammo, you also of course have the addresses of those owning the guns! All that was left was a simple matter of burglary!

If I also recall, one of those addresses was of an ex high ranking military officer who had his home burgled as a result of the ammo info. He had gone to immense lengths to build not just a normal locked firearms container but had built a concrete room to house it. The thieves literally knocked down the concrete and dragged away the entire metal gun locker!

The reason it made the papers was that despite the more than normal lengths he had gone to protect his firearms he was still charged with storing them in an unsafe manner! Obviously, the government was embarrassed and tried to make him the sacrifice. The newspapers in Toronto had a field day with the issue and I do believe they were shamed into dropping the charges against the victim.

Anyone who trusts the integrity of a government data base or information system is naive at best! Too many stories of computers being trashed with their hard drives still containing Canada Revenue files of citizen tax returns, or laptops with Defense Ministry info left with girl friends that had had history with motorcycle gangs, or many other such examples.

I would not be at all surprised to know that some high level criminal gangs possess digital copies of the entire Liberal Gun Registry.

[Handsome Rob]

Now here comes my curiosity;

I've only been a firearms owner for about 6 or 7 years, but never once signed for ammo. Some sort of store policy? Provincial law? (Is that possible?)

[Guest Derek L]

Now here comes my curiosity;

I've only been a firearms owner for about 6 or 7 years, but never once signed for ammo. Some sort of store policy? Provincial law? (Is that possible?)

Nope, me neither………I usually either go into one of the local sporting goods stores or Walmart…….Just have to produce your PAL/RPAL……Perhaps Bill‘s storey is pre registry….But Wild Bill’s point still stands……..When we have government computers being hacked, the last thing I want is a criminal finding out what I own and where I live……..Guns are like Gold……..Their individual valve will rise & decrease, but you can always find a buyer, especially on the black market.

[Guest Derek L]

You might be interested to know that there was a scandal in the GTA a couple of years ago over that very thing!

I confess my memory is not perfect but it had to do with signing for purchasing ammunition. Apparently it was common practice for criminals to legally buy some ammo just to see the signature book, which would show all the names and addresses of those who had signed in before them.

Once you've garnered the addresses of people buying ammo, you also of course have the addresses of those owning the guns! All that was left was a simple matter of burglary!

If I also recall, one of those addresses was of an ex high ranking military officer who had his home burgled as a result of the ammo info. He had gone to immense lengths to build not just a normal locked firearms container but had built a concrete room to house it. The thieves literally knocked down the concrete and dragged away the entire metal gun locker!

The reason it made the papers was that despite the more than normal lengths he had gone to protect his firearms he was still charged with storing them in an unsafe manner! Obviously, the government was embarrassed and tried to make him the sacrifice. The newspapers in Toronto had a field day with the issue and I do believe they were shamed into dropping the charges against the victim.

Anyone who trusts the integrity of a government data base or information system is naive at best! Too many stories of computers being trashed with their hard drives still containing Canada Revenue files of citizen tax returns, or laptops with Defense Ministry info left with girl friends that had had history with motorcycle gangs, or many other such examples.

I would not be at all surprised to know that some high level criminal gangs possess digital copies of the entire Liberal Gun Registry.

Though I don’t really lose too much sleep over it (and don’t have a bunker….yet) I don’t trust government (of any strip) fully……..It’s worth noting, the most successful gun control campaigns on private ownership were implemented by such note worthy politicians as Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot & Mao.

[Wild Bill]

Nope, me neither………I usually either go into one of the local sporting goods stores or Walmart…….Just have to produce your PAL/RPAL……Perhaps Bill‘s storey is pre registry….But Wild Bill’s point still stands……..When we have government computers being hacked, the last thing I want is a criminal finding out what I own and where I live……..Guns are like Gold……..Their individual valve will rise & decrease, but you can always find a buyer, especially on the black market.

Here's a cite:

http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12279

It quotes a January 23/2006 article by Mark Bonokoski, which I assume came from the Toronto Sun. You'll find a few articles which are a good read on these gun issues but click down about 5 pages to the second article of this date.

"Even the most well-intentioned of laws can go off the tracks, as one man shows when he makes a not-quite-legal ammo purchase

By Mark Bonokoski

When it comes to gangs and guns, where there's a way there's a will -- whether it's casing, stalking or buying information that leads to legitimate gun owners. "

"It also pre-dated -- by a year -- the Baylis Bill, a piece of legislation that was quickly passed following the shooting death of 25-year-old Metro Toronto Police Const. Todd Baylis.

And both, in their own way, and despite the best intentions, aided and abetted the gangs of today in their quest for both guns and ammunition."

From the next article, dated January 22/2006:

"What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the high-profile story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor named Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns."

"Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun had been involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is now a warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons -- despite the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and that it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge hammers to gain access to it."

You'll likely want to read the entire page of stuff, Derek. Quite illuminating!

[Handsome Rob]

Wow. So for a non-lawyer, how is this possible?

Restriction re purchase of ammunition

2. (1) No person shall purchase ammunition unless the person is at least 18 years old and at the time of purchase presents valid identification that has his or her photograph and age or date of birth or other valid identification prescribed by regulation. 1994, c. 20, s. 2 (1).

Same

(2) Despite subsection (1), a person under 18 years old may purchase ammunition if he or she presents at the time of purchase the valid identification required under subsection (1) and a valid licence issued to him or her under subsection 8 (2) of the Firearms Act (Canada). 1994, c. 20, s. 2 (2); 2009, c. 33, Sched. 9, s. 1 (1).

Same

(3) Despite subsection (1), a person 12 years old or older and under 18 years old may purchase ammunition if he or she presents at the time of purchase the valid identification required under subsection (1) and a valid licence issued to him or her under subsection 8 (3) of the Firearms Act (Canada). 2009, c. 33, Sched. 9, s. 1 (2).

Improper documentation

(4) No person shall present, for the purpose of purchasing ammunition, identification or a permit other than that which was lawfully issued to him or her. 1994, c. 20, s. 2 (4).

Offence

(5) A person who contravenes subsection (1), except as permitted by subsection (2) or (3), is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable,

(a) for a first offence, to a fine of not more than $5,000;

( for a second or subsequent offence, to a fine of not more than $10,000. 1994, c. 20, s. 2 (5).

Same

(6) A person who contravenes subsection (4) is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not more than $10,000. 1994, c. 20, s. 2 (6).

That sounds indictable, and it sounds a lot like criminal law. How is it possible that the government of Ontario is empowered to do this without ultra vires applying?

[Smallc]

Provinces can write administrative regulations. They are, in a way, quasi criminal law.

[Wild Bill]

Wow. So for a non-lawyer, how is this possible?

That sounds indictable, and it sounds a lot like criminal law. How is it possible that the government of Ontario is empowered to do this without ultra vires applying?

I read both cited articles completely and since I'm also not a lawyer I can't say as to whether or not Ontario is contravening federal law. My sense was that there were laws made that were useless in the real world. An inexperienced or simply dumb and gullible store clerk can allow an opportunity for a criminal to exploit, as in leaving a record book out on a counter.

Meanwhile, some inexperienced or simply dumb and gullible politicians enact a law that is useless in the real world, like the Liberal gun registry in the first place and whatever Ontario did in the second. Certainly I would believe that McGuinty and company were inexperienced, dumb and gullible. Lots of examples of that while they've been in power!

[Handsome Rob]

Provinces can write administrative regulations. They are, in a way, quasi criminal law.

How is that defined? Administrative.

[Smallc]

How is that defined? Administrative.

I'm not really sure, exactly, but it's common practice, and it hasn't been struck down.

Workplace Safety and Health Act breaches in Manitoba can send you to jail for 6 months under provincial law.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Smallc

[Guest Derek L]

Here's a cite:

http://www.excaliburcrossbow.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12279

It quotes a January 23/2006 article by Mark Bonokoski, which I assume came from the Toronto Sun. You'll find a few articles which are a good read on these gun issues but click down about 5 pages to the second article of this date.

"Even the most well-intentioned of laws can go off the tracks, as one man shows when he makes a not-quite-legal ammo purchase

By Mark Bonokoski

When it comes to gangs and guns, where there's a way there's a will -- whether it's casing, stalking or buying information that leads to legitimate gun owners. "

"It also pre-dated -- by a year -- the Baylis Bill, a piece of legislation that was quickly passed following the shooting death of 25-year-old Metro Toronto Police Const. Todd Baylis.

And both, in their own way, and despite the best intentions, aided and abetted the gangs of today in their quest for both guns and ammunition."

From the next article, dated January 22/2006:

"What made the political bullets truly fly, however, was the high-profile story of a well-known Toronto gun collector and firearms instructor named Mike Hargreaves whose North Toronto apartment broken into while he was away visiting his son in Florida. Thirty-five high-powered weapons were stolen -- from Glock handguns to machineguns."

"Hargreaves admits to being "devastated by the news" that the gun had been involved in a homicide and almost as devastated by the fact there is now a warrant out for his arrest for unsafe storage of those weapons -- despite the fact they were stored in a 771-kilo concrete-and-steel safe and that it took the industrious thieves two days using blowtorches and sledge hammers to gain access to it."

You'll likely want to read the entire page of stuff, Derek. Quite illuminating!

An Ontario thing:

And the Baylis Bill -- legislated in 1994 by the NDP government of Ontario Premier Bob Rae -- requires every ammunition purchase to be put in a record book at point-of-sale, complete with the purchaser's name and address.

Indeed…….we don’t have to sign for it here……that just seems plain retarded………..Myself personally, I’ll usually stop in WalMart and pick-up .22 LR or Shotgun shells if I’m heading into the bush with my son……..Centerfire rifle and handgun ammo I’ll usually by the 500rd or 1000rd case from a proper, local gun shop…..A lot Cheaper that way……..but rumour has it, Santa is bringing me a press with .45ACP, .40 S&W and .357 Magnum dies…….I figure (S)he wants me to save even more money on ammo (To buy more guns naturally) or kill myself in a horrible accident due to my faulty reloads.

Edited October 24, 2011 by Derek L

[Handsome Rob]

An Ontario thing:

Indeed…….we don’t have to sign for it here……that just seems plain retarded………..Myself personally, I’ll usually stop in WalMart and pick-up .22 LR or Shotgun shells if I’m heading into the bush with my son……..Centerfire rifle and handgun ammo I’ll usually by the 500rd or 1000rd case from a proper, local gun shop…..A lot Cheaper that way……..but rumour has it, Santa is bringing me a press with .45ACP, .40 S&W and .357 Magnum dies…….I figure (S)he wants me to save even more money on ammo (To buy more guns naturally) or kill myself in a horrible accident due to my faulty reloads.

I miss the old warden at PCDHFC that sold reloads out of his trailer. Great price, never had problem worse than a misfire.

I wonder what happened to him, he seemed old enough that any thoughts of retirement ought to have been long past him.

[Guest Derek L]

I miss the old warden at PCDHFC that sold reloads out of his trailer. Great price, never had problem worse than a misfire.

I wonder what happened to him, he seemed old enough that any thoughts of retirement ought to have been long past him.

LOL.........I dunno.....Always been too much of a chicken $hit to trust another person’s reloads, let alone my own…….wrt to POCO, dropped in there just before the kids went back to school…….The houses are sure getting close, makes me wonder how much longer it has left...Though it’s a bit of a drive, Abby isn’t bad…..The beauty of Silvercore…..freedom of choice

[Tilter]

Was it a hand gun that killed the RCMP out west? Do hunters or farmer`s or anyone who have rifle, chose a hand kill to their spouse or some else. ALL guns are dangerous.

No--- all guns are not dangerous---- it's the users who are dangerous.

Can you cite 1 (ONE) case where a gun has shot a person or for that matter, the drawer in which it was stored?