Derek 2.0 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 That is, again, nothing but your musings. You just said it yourself!!! Quote
ReeferMadness Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 So they've ordered new vessels? Trudeau was sworn in a month ago and has spent most of the time since on the road. You think he ordered them and put them on a government credit card? Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Smallc Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 Except, sans a modern AAD capability, we won't. The ships would of course have AD capability (like most of the world's ships). They simply wouldn't have the umbrella capability. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 The reality though, is thus: Canada will not be waging war on her own. If North America is attacked, there will be a joint response from Canada and the US. Made possible because the United States builds ships, submarines, and fighter "jets" regardless of which party is the ruling clown show in Washington. Funny how that works, huh ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Derek 2.0 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 Trudeau was sworn in a month ago and has spent most of the time since on the road. You think he ordered them and put them on a government credit card? Not at all, as I've been saying for weeks, based on his own fiscal plan, he has no intention of ordering them inside this mandate. Quote
Smallc Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 Made possible because the United States builds ships, submarines, and fighter "jets" regardless of which party is the ruling clown show in Washington. Exactly. Quote
Smallc Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 (edited) Not at all, as I've been saying for weeks, based on his own fiscal plan, he has no intention of ordering them inside this mandate. The OOSV and JSS were both scheduled to be ordered and constructed (in the case of the OOSV completely, and in the case of the JSS partially) within this mandate. That money was there and is still there, but needs to be increased in the case of the OOSV. The CSC is set to have the designer and combat integrator selected within this mandate. With a build date starting around 2020, it will probably not need to be ordered until the very end of the mandate, at the earliest. Edited December 5, 2015 by Smallc Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 The ships would of course have AD capability (like most of the world's ships). They simply wouldn't have the umbrella capability. I see, so the ships might be able to defend themselves, but not the AOR or civilian vessels.......kinda defeats the purpose of having a navy. Quote
Smallc Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 I see, so the ships might be able to defend themselves, but not the AOR or civilian vessels.......kinda defeats the purpose of having a navy. So what you're telling me is that most of the world's navy ships are useless? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 The OOSV and JSS were both scheduled to be ordered within this mandate. That money was there and is still there, but needs to be increased in the case of the OOSV. The CSC is set to have the designer and combat integrator selected within this mandate. With a build date starting around 2020, it will probably not need to be ordered until the very end of the mandate, at the earliest. How is Irving going to start building a vessel, yet to be designed, in a yard that will be building the final AOPS vessels? Are you suggesting Trudeau is going to cancel or postpone the AOPS timeline now? Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 So what you're telling me is that most of the world's navy ships are useless? In a high or medium threat environment, with a foe armed with supersonic anti ship missiles, yes they are. Quote
Smallc Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 How is Irving going to start building a vessel, yet to be designed, in a yard that will be building the final AOPS vessels? Are you suggesting Trudeau is going to cancel or postpone the AOPS timeline now? The Vessels are being built in blocks. As the final 1 - 2 AOPS are in mega block form, the individual blocks for the CSC can begin construction. That's supposed to happen somewhere between 2020 and 2022. Quote
Smallc Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 In a high or medium threat environment, with a foe armed with supersonic anti ship missiles, yes they are. For what we're engaged in generally, they're not useless. You seem fixated on the least likely scenarios. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 The Vessels are being built in blocks. As the final 1 - 2 AOPS are in mega block form, the individual blocks for the CSC can begin construction. That's supposed to happen somewhere between 2020 and 2022. Has Irving bought more real estate on the harbor front? Quote
Smallc Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 (edited) Has Irving bought more real estate on the harbor front? Each of the 3 stages involve different parts of the building. Hence the different roof heights. 2022, btw, will see the end of the AOPS program within the shipyard building. 2020 - 2022 are not unrealistic dates. Edited December 5, 2015 by Smallc Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 For what we're engaged in generally, they're not useless. You seem fixated on the least likely scenarios. No, I'm "fixated" on asymmetric and A2/AD warfare versus refighting the Battle of the Atlantic against a one dimensional foe...... Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 Each of the 3 stages involve different parts of the building. Hence the different roof heights. 2022, btw, will see the end of the AOPS program within the shipyard building. 2020 - 2022 are not unrealistic dates. Riiiight.......since they've yet to define (or review and define again), let alone design the vessel, I think start of construction even in the following mandate is lofty....... Quote
ReeferMadness Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 Not at all, as I've been saying for weeks, based on his own fiscal plan, he has no intention of ordering them inside this mandate. And you've been able to determine this based on your read of campaign materials. Some may say wait for a budget or two. You can just keep on holding seances. Quote Unlimited economic growth has the marvelous quality of stilling discontent while preserving privilege, a fact that has not gone unnoticed among liberal economists. - Noam Chomsky It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair
Derek 2.0 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 And you've been able to determine this based on your read of campaign materials. Some may say wait for a budget or two. You can just keep on holding seances. No, by their own fiscal plan........feel free to highlight where the tens of billions of dollars is to come from..... Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 ...The CSC is set to have the designer and combat integrator selected within this mandate. With a build date starting around 2020, it will probably not need to be ordered until the very end of the mandate, at the earliest. What is this "mandate" ? Does the "mandate" actually set national defense priorities, or is it just an assumed extension of political advantage ? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Smallc Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 No, by their own fiscal plan........feel free to highlight where the tens of billions of dollars is to come from..... You're being purposely obtuse. These programs were all planned within that budget. These procurements are all paid for as they happen, over time (in the case of the ships, over the next 30 years). We didn't know until this week that said budget was not sufficient (and don't forget that said budget does not include the extra $190M or so per year that starts flowing as of next year). There is a lot of time to make the necessary money available. That said, there are some preliminary decisions that need to be made very soon with regards to the OOSV and CSC (those decisions have largely been made for the JSS with its increased envelope). Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 You're being purposely obtuse. These programs were all planned within that budget. These procurements are all paid for as they happen, over time (in the case of the ships, over the next 30 years). We didn't know until this week that said budget was not sufficient (and don't forget that said budget does not include the extra $190M or so per year that starts flowing as of next year). There is a lot of time to make the necessary money available. That said, there are some preliminary decisions that need to be made very soon with regards to the OOSV and CSC (those decisions have largely been made for the JSS with its increased envelope). No, the previous Government already paid for the AOPS and CCG vessels under construction now......the current Government has to pay for the remainder of the vessels to be ordered inside this mandate. Per their fiscal plan, they don't have said money budgeted, since the bulk of the vessels won't be ordered inside this mandate. Simple concept. Quote
Smallc Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 No, the previous Government already paid for the AOPS and CCG vessels under construction now......the current Government has to pay for the remainder of the vessels to be ordered inside this mandate. Per their fiscal plan, they don't have said money budgeted, since the bulk of the vessels won't be ordered inside this mandate. Simple concept. So you're turning time into the enemy somehow? There are two programs to be started within this mandate, both at Seaspan. There is 1 program (CSC) that needs significant decisions taken (though many of those decisions are outside of the government hands beyond funding and in the hands of Irving). The CSC (or a first tranche) contract may be signed within this mandate. That was always planned and already budgeted. Quote
Derek 2.0 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 So you're turning time into the enemy somehow? There are two programs to be started within this mandate, both at Seaspan. There is 1 program (CSC) that needs significant decisions taken (though many of those decisions are outside of the government hands beyond funding and in the hands of Irving). The CSC (or a first tranche) contract may be signed within this mandate. That was always planned and already budgeted. No it wasn't, as the current Government has no money set aside for a series of vessels yet to be designed......that will now cost twice as much as thought prior. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 5, 2015 Report Posted December 5, 2015 So you're turning time into the enemy somehow? Interesting, as no enemy has done more harm to Canadian readiness than Canada itself...and time. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
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