Shipbuilding contracts

[Smallc]

I like the names...it'd be nice to see them on a hull some day ...

[Guest Derek L]

I like the names...it'd be nice to see them on a hull some day ...

I hope they revisit the Bay class sweepers names for the AOPS, and the DDE Rivers for the frigates....

[Smallc]

I hope they revisit the Bay class sweepers names for the AOPS, and the DDE Rivers for the frigates....

I hope they actually build something.

[Guest Derek L]

I hope they actually build something.

It's moving slowly but surely.......with all the construction underway, the roads are already screwed up along the waterfront of North Vancouver

Oh and stay tuned to this thread:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/22806-helicopter-deal-f-35-all-over-again/page-2

Post-Nov 2.........things will start going very quickly

[Smallc]

I don't know if there will be a change there at all.

[Guest Derek L]

I don't know if there will be a change there at all.

I will be very surprised if there is not (to the alluded choice) and a sole source contract to the only supplier that can provide a replacement in a very timely manner.

[Smallc]

The airforce is apparently pushing to keep going with the CH-148.

[Guest Derek L]

The airforce is apparently pushing to keep going with the CH-148.

Then you heard wrong......to stick with the CH-148, the RCAF will have to accept degraded safety standards when contrasted with the Sea King......and of course, nobody knows yet if the mission suite will work.........

I can assure you that there are perfectly safe Merlin HM1s (soon to be HM2s), with a combat proven mission suite, at RNAS Culdrose right now……In fact, about eight HM1s won’t be upgraded as planned, and it is thought they will be stored for eventual conversion as a “Merlin ASAC” once the Sea Kings go……

Of course there’s nothing saying the Royal Navy couldn’t lend us these surplus HM1s to start conversion training until we got new builds from the factory and then we either send them back to the British, use them as a parts source and attrition reserve for the CH-149s, send them back to the factory to be rebuilt (reducing the purchase of new ones by 8), or best of all, keep them and convert them into a utility “Junglie” version…….

[Army Guy]

Why would would not follow the british, and patner with their design, and get a larger ship with more capabilities, built much sooner

[Smallc]

Which ship?

[Army Guy]

Which ship?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17127488

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/bmt-design-portfolio/bmt-aegir-logistic-support-vessels/

http://www.casr.ca/bg-navy-jss-joint-support-ship-aor.htm

[Smallc]

The Berlin, from what I remember, was found to be better for our uses.

[Guest Derek L]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17127488

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/bmt-design-portfolio/bmt-aegir-logistic-support-vessels/

http://www.casr.ca/bg-navy-jss-joint-support-ship-aor.htm

The Aegir is more tailored for fuel supply, with very little dry stores.......The Berlin class, like our current ships, does both.

[Guest Derek L]

They built her for about ~$500 million........Of course, that price would be a bargain and allow us to give one of our current shipyards work, alongside as opposed to on the new slips they're building, well also allowing us to use our current AORs less until the new ones are built....And once built, we could keep her as a "spare" AOR and use her for disaster relief and other humanitarian missions......

Of course, that would only make sense.

Though it appears the Dutch will now keep her, thanks in part to public outrage and some budgetary acrobatics, in my view, there is still a viable requirement for Canada (like most other first world nations) to have a amphibious assault ship(s).

Open warfare aside, such ships are worth their weight in gold in responding to natural disasters in large part thanks to their required facilities and attributes. Desalinization plants, hospital facilities, the ability to operate in austere conditions, self sufficient helicopter and small boat facilities, a large cargo space that can fit numerous ISO containers (full of aide) and oversized equipment (bulldozers, backhoes and dump trucks etc) and of course, communications and command & control facilities to coordinate a relief effort.

With the recent typhoon that has hit the Philippines, I think that such a contribution would be a more valuable contribution then just money and food aide alone. Of course, this is a foreign policy decision, but such vessels would also be invaluable for a potential domestic disaster.

Of course in a finite budget climate, funding additional resources to purchase such vessels might not be viable, as such I would submit that even a reduction in either the AOPS or Surface Combatant programs to fund the acquisition of several of such vessels.

Case in point, Australia is currently building two Spanish designed LHD vessels, for a price tag roughly equal that of about three modern frigates (both in terms of procurement and support costs):

Though such a Canadian capability has been continually examined (at differing intensities) since the Trudeau Government decommissioned our last aircraft carrier, and the idea has been mentioned in the then Canadian Alliances policy platform, followed by vocal mention by former CDS Hillier’s “Big Honking Ship”, leading to further in depth, focused training by Canadian Forces in (with the aide of USS Gunston Hall) the fall of ’06, I think the topic worthy of being brought up again.

The above HMCS Magnificent in route to Egypt after the Suez crisis to contribute to then Foreign Affairs Minister, (then called Secretary of external affairs) Lester B Pearson’s (Nobel Peace Prize winning) UN sanctioned Peacekeeping Force.

[Smallc]

On the other hand...the Philippines are 13000 km away. I'd be far more happy with 2 more CC-177s.

[Smallc]

I'd also be happy with no AOPS...I don't really want to reduce the purchase of the CSC. I'd take the money from the AOPS, and put it towards the JSS project.

[Guest Derek L]

On the other hand...the Philippines are 13000 km away. I'd be far more happy with 2 more CC-177s.

But the majority of the RCN’s current and past operations are “far away”…….Esquimalt to Leyte, at a sustainable speed (~10-15 knots), with a stop for provisions in Pearl or Guam, you’re looking at ~2-3 weeks. Of course the initial response like a DART could respond in a mater of hours/days via aircraft, but even the USAF with all of it’s resources could not sustain a required effort for long though, so ultimately ships would have to go.

Will MARPAC be able to contribute this time? With the recent damage to HMCS Winnipeg and HMCS Algonquin and the material condition of HMCS Protecteur, I would think slim to no chance as it stands……

As to additional CC-117s? The RCAF would love a couple more, but the funding is currently not there…..this would have to change relatively quick (unless we could buy used) since Boeing will be shutting down production is 2015.

[Smallc]

That's why I'd like to see the JSS project get the money from the AOPS project. We could then have 3 or maybe even 4 of the ships, and we would be able to respond to something like this by sea immediately.

[Guest Derek L]

I'd also be happy with no AOPS...I don't really want to reduce the purchase of the CSC. I'd take the money from the AOPS, and put it towards the JSS project.

I’m admittedly up in the air over AOPS……..I know that it is a political acquisition, but by the same token, it will translate into hull numbers and afford the RCN the ability to use the AOPS on less demanding taskings, that as current, are the sole (wasted) purview of an actual warship.

In a perfect world, the planned allocated funding for the AOPS, would go to the CCG and allow a second Polar ice breaker to replace the Terry Fox and a couple more Hero-class patrol boats. With the realization that the CSC & AOR would be ring fenced, the Kingston’s given either a refit or better yet, replaced at a 2:1 ratio with Little Crappy Ships in the 2020s, the Victoria’s would be replaced with joint Canadian/Australian/Dutch class and finally, several of Hillier’s “BHS” acquired.

[Guest Derek L]

That's why I'd like to see the JSS project get the money from the AOPS project. We could then have 3 or maybe even 4 of the ships, and we would be able to respond to something like this by sea immediately.

Though better suited then a frigate, an AOR (like the Berlin class) is only slightly better in such instances, as made evident with our experiences in East Timor, Somalia and Haiti.

[Smallc]

Though better suited then a frigate, an AOR (like the Berlin class) is only slightly better in such instances, as made evident with our experiences in East Timor, Somalia and Haiti.

Maybe, but, they do have hospital facilities and can carry a great many supplies.

[Guest Derek L]

Maybe, but, they do have hospital facilities and can carry a great many supplies.

This is true, but in a disaster type scenario limited or damaged port facilities will hinder the delivery of aide from a AOR, well the medical/dental facilities aboard our current and future AORs are limited in scope and tailored for the requirements of a naval task force.

And of course, both warships and the AOR are limited in the number of embarked forces they can carry…..quite obviously a frigate and AOR isn’t going to be able to deploy and support an engineering squadron, field hospital, military police platoon and a logistics company (and all their equipment), to say nothing of limited ship to shore capabilities.

Though the ships crews are more then willing to contribute, sailors with RHIBs and maybe a Sea King are very limited, in comparison to a proper landing ship, with the capabilities that they can deliver.

[Smallc]

This has nothing to do with the topic, but the Interdepartmental Strategic Support Team is on route to Phillipines to decide how we can best assist l.

[Guest Derek L]

This has nothing to do with the topic, but the Interdepartmental Strategic Support Team is on route to Phillipines to decide how we can best assist l.

Yup and ISST team will be made up various alphabet agencies and will help determine the viability of sending DART (like I was mentioning this morning in AW status)…………

The one thing to hypothetically tie this into our off-topic discussion:

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/government-to-match-canadians-donations-to-typhoon-haiyan-relief-1.1536343

More than 9.5 million people have been affected by the typhoon, and at least 600,000 individuals have been forced from their homes. The Red Cross estimates at least 1,200 individuals have died, and local authorities say the toll will be much higher.

Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird said relief efforts are complicated by the fact that the Philippines is made up of thousands of islands.

“This typhoon has devastated nine different regions,” Baird said. “I guess our real fear is that as the relief efforts get to more places, we’ll find more devastation and more needs.”

Just saying.........

Now if such Imperialistic powers as New Zealand, Singapore and (soon to be) the Irish see a requirement for amphibious lift, and can afford it, Canada has no excuses……incidentally, several years after the commissioning of the HMNZS Canterbury, our New Zealand cousins found it’s service invaluable during the Christchurch earthquake…..

[Smallc]

Apparently it's going to be a very large operation, and DART and units in Comox and Trenton were stood up last night.