UN independent panel rules Israel blockade of Gaza illegal

[GostHacked]

Of course, but I'm trying to keep things simple. Conversely, in the hypothetical Canada where all women are wearing hijabs (which necessarily means they are all religious Muslims), there will be an equal amount of Muslim men as their counterweight.... effectively transforming Canadian society into a religious Islamic society. Sick, sick, sick.

And dre, GostHacked, and Peter F are all totally fine with that.

Well, since you are speaking hypothetically, there is little truth or stance with your argument. Canada has no fear of this nation being turned into an Islamic society. Don't blame the muslims, blame your government. I will assume that you Bob, would prefer all the mulsims rounded up and deported? Why not throw them into concentration camps?

Not only did you stretch the truth quite a bit, your statement about women wearing the Hijab and that ranged from 5% to 100% of women. With your argument, you leave little room for anyone to try to argue against what you are saying. The parameters of your argument are so broad and general really downright rediculous, that there is no specifity to your argument, hence, nothing to argue back about.

IN 2001 the Canadian censuse indicated that Canada's Muslim population was about 2%. So this already falls within your acceptable under 5% of canadian-muslim women wearing the hijab.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Canada

The only things that are sick about this Bob, are your words.

[bud]

Of course, but I'm trying to keep things simple. Conversely, in the hypothetical Canada where all women are wearing hijabs (which necessarily means they are all religious Muslims), there will be an equal amount of Muslim men as their counterweight.... effectively transforming Canadian society into a religious Islamic society. Sick, sick, sick.

And dre, GostHacked, and Peter F are all totally fine with that.

what a stupid comment.

[Peter F]

Of course, but I'm trying to keep things simple. Conversely, in the hypothetical Canada where all women are wearing hijabs (which necessarily means they are all religious Muslims), there will be an equal amount of Muslim men as their counterweight.... effectively transforming Canadian society into a religious Islamic society. Sick, sick, sick.

And dre, GostHacked, and Peter F are all totally fine with that.

Sorry Bob, but people are allowed to be whatever religion they want. And if all the women of the world want to wear hijabs then they get to wear hijabs. You don't like it too effing bad.

[GostHacked]

Sorry Bob, but people are allowed to be whatever religion they want. And if all the women of the world want to wear hijabs then they get to wear hijabs. You don't like it too effing bad.

How many Jews are forced to wear religious garb against their will? This might be about the best strawman argument I can make against what Bob is saying.

[Bob]

Sorry Bob, but people are allowed to be whatever religion they want. And if all the women of the world want to wear hijabs then they get to wear hijabs. You don't like it too effing bad.

Nobody is surprised that you, a person who is totally comfortable living in a Canada that entirely Muslim, would also be totally comfortable living in a world that is completely Muslim. You're a poster child for just how far extreme political correctness can go. Nothing surprises me, anymore.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Bob

[GostHacked]

Sorry Bob, but people are allowed to be whatever religion they want. And if all the women of the world want to wear hijabs then they get to wear hijabs. You don't like it too effing bad.

[/quote

Nobody is surprised that you, a person who is totally comfortable living in a Canada that entirely Muslim, would also be totally comfortable living in a world that is completely Muslim. You're a poster child for just how far extreme political correctness can go. Nothing surprises me, anymore.

How much more can you stretch the truth Bob?

[Bob]

ame='Bob' date='19 September 2011 - 11:26 AM' timestamp='1316445979' post='710546']

How much more can you stretch the truth Bob?

I'm not stretching anything. I'm accurately describing what you clearly stated you're comfortable with. Are you or are you not comfortable with a Canada that is composed entirely of Muslims? What's the highest proportion of the Canadian population that you're comfortable with as Muslims? You already stated that you're totally fine with an Ottawa where 100% of women are wearing hijabs. In other words, an Ottawa where all women are religious Muslims is an Ottawa you're cool with.

[Oleg Bach]

The UN just pretend like a religion that they have authority - they have none - all they do is cause delay and confusion. Gaza and the rest of the holy land should be entitled to settle their own issues - The more others interfere - the longer the misery is sustained.

[GostHacked]

I'm not stretching anything. I'm accurately describing what you clearly stated you're comfortable with. Are you or are you not comfortable with a Canada that is composed entirely of Muslims? What's the highest proportion of the Canadian population that you're comfortable with as Muslims? You already stated that you're totally fine with an Ottawa where 100% of women are wearing hijabs. In other words, an Ottawa where all women are religious Muslims is an Ottawa you're cool with.

No, your statement was convoluted at best. Because you made the argument of 5% up to 100%. I am fine with Muslims choosing what to wear, as I am with other religions being allowed to wear what they want (ans some is against their will I would guess). I also stated that current population of Muslims in Canada is under 5%. Canada has no fear of becoming even 50% Muslim, let alone your totally idiotic and ignorant statement of 100%. So your strawman argument fails from the start.

You are severely construing what people say in these threads to fit your argument. And some of your arguments are so blatantly retarded that even a 5 year old could argue against what you are saying.

When some of us say,'we have no problem with what people want to wear', you take it so far to mean we are fine with a 100% Muslim society in Canada. How much can you stretch the truth Bob?

You failed again Bob.

[bud]

Nobody is surprised that you, a person who is totally comfortable living in a Canada that entirely Muslim, would also be totally comfortable living in a world that is completely Muslim. You're a poster child for just how far extreme political correctness can go. Nothing surprises me, anymore.

zionism enables some jews to turn into the people who persecuted them.

[Bob]

We're speaking in hypotheticals, anyways. Is there or is there not a maximum amount of Muslims you're willing to accept in Canada? You're backtracking, now... where you and several other suicidal leftists openly declared that you're all willing to live in a Canada where 100% of women wear hijabs. It's a question of principle, and I expected you to engage in evasion so as to avoid an truth you're uncomfortable with. I said it before and I'll say it again - if you're really comfortable with an Islamic Canada (which is what 100% of women wearing hijabs would necessarily mean), then you're either lying or you're stupid.

I think without proper management Islam will continue to grow in Canada, as will the religiosity of self-described Muslims. Every day we're seeing more and more hijabs, and a greater proportion of the Canadian population is self-identifying as practising/religious Muslims. Canadians, as politically correct and pathetic as we've now become, are afraid to assert our cultural superiority. The consequence? Vulnerability to destruction via importing third-worlders from the garbage cans of the world (i.e. Somalia) who bring with them all of their barbarism, savagery, ignorance, hatreds, and inability to integrate meaningful into our economies while they sit on welfare in subsidized housing projects.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Bob

[August1991]

Getting back to the OP...

We disagree with you so we're stupid? Sorry, bub, but the UN's "Human Rights" group has so thoroughly and completely lost any semblance of neutrality, integrity or honesty that nothing that comes out of there is of any value on any subject. Surely anyone who isn't "stupid" ought to know that.

Did the UN panel pronounce on the Egpytian embargo of Gaza?

Women, children and men over 40 are now allowed to pass freely. Men aged between 18 and 40 will still require a permit, and trade is prohibited.

The move - strongly opposed by Israel - comes some three months after Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak lost power.

Egypt and Israel closed borders with Gaza when Hamas seized power in 2007.

BBC

[Rue]

zionism enables some jews to turn into the people who persecuted them.

The pretext of criticizing Zionists turns you into someone who makes not so subtle holocaust inversion comments over and over again in an effort to suggest Zionists are Nazis.

The fact you put the word "some" in front of the word "Jews" fails to mask your blatant anti-semitism.

Once again you refer to Jews when the pretext of this bullsheeyit thread was to criticize Israeli state policies. You are a classic example of someone who attacks Jews and uses the pretext of criticizing Israel to do it and the "some" does not sanitize what you do and make it politically correct.

You are someone who comes to this forum to bait JEWS. Not SOME Jews, ALL Jews. You come to this forum to bait Jews and incite people to criticize Jews using alleged criticism of Israeli state policies as your pretext.

Once I am on the topic. Bob now has come on this forum to make sweeping generalizations of all Muslims and Arabs no different then you do Jews.

You both deserve each other.

The only difference between the 2 of you is he does not hide his agenda and try pose himself as a leftist.

SOME Jews. This one tells you that your personal attack against Jews and accusing them of being Nazis is pathetic and exposes you for what you are.

[Rue]

Well... I guess we can add LIAR to the list of other things you are such as racist, bigot, zealot, and extremist.

The ONLY thing I said is that women should wear whatever they want. Its a non-issue for me.

He is an extremist. He makes sweeping generalizations about all Muslims.

That is to be challenged but dismissing him and Bud for what they are, people who not come on this forum to incite polarized responses won't deal with the issues.

There are issues dealing with the Middle East. Rather than allowing these 2 to side track it with their own personal subjective biases go back and focus on the issues and ignore them as I have not. Lol. I need to follow my own friggin advise.

One other thing and I want your opinion on it because while I disagree with you one things I know one thing you are not-a hateful person. What I also know is you are not some sort of bleeding heart either.

Maybe in another thread more appropriate you can address his issue on problems assimilating new Canadians of religions or cultures that clash with our current "Western" values. I tend to think its a real issue, but I just don't see it with Muslims. I see it with many groups.

I see it where I live now with Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Chinese, all struggling to assimilate and finding their cultural and religious values coming into conflict with Western values. I don't think its too far off probably what my grandparents or other immigrants faced when they came here and I think its more of an assimilation issue then one particular to one religion or culture.

That said and getting back to this topic-the issue remains that Israel has the legal right to intercept ships at sea it fears are smuggling weapons to be used to kill Israelis. The UN said so and quite frankly what the UN says means diddle swat. The fact is Turkey the nation whose leader now tries to make brownie points in the Middle East bad mouthing Israel has his navy do the exact thing Israel's does. The Turkish navy has been intercepting ships it suspects of supporting Kurds.

NATO regularly intercepts ships at sea suspected of running weapons or drugs.

India, China, and many other navies have intercepted, boarded and sunk ships suspected of piracy. India blew one out of the water when it shot back at one of her ships.

This bull crap double standard where Israel can not inspect ships is argued is only that. No you don't sit around picking your nose while someone brings in weapons to kill you hard as that is for Bud and some of you to fathom.

No you don't engage in terrorism and flaunt international law, then claim it applies to you when its convenient to protect you from Israel.

Turkey and Hamas can take their double standards and shove it up their

righteous keesters.

You want to play politics with the flotilla as Turkey did, it will come back as it has and blow up in their face. This country with its genocide of Armenians and now Kurds is in no position to lecture anyone on human rights. It engages in genocide of Kurds while it suddenly has concerns over Palestinians? Right.

If Turkey thinks its pathetic attempt to recycle Nasser throguh Erdogan to try take back leadership of the Middle East from Eguypt is going to prevail think again-before that happens Erdogan will overplay his hand as he has done time and time again and commit such bloody genocide against Kurds as to permanently estrange the very Sunni Muslim states he now alienates by supporting Iran. The days of Israel bashing to try gain instant credibility in the Middle East are over.

The schism between Sunni and Shiite is far too deep to try suspend it with a focus on hating Israel. The Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood will not forget what happened in Syria and blame Iran as much as they do the current Syrian regime and the current Turkish bafoon who started off supporting Assad only to back out not when he was wiping out Sunni Muslims but when he stopped wiping out Kurds.

Even between enemies like the Sunni Muslims and Israel there is an honour code Erdogan flaunted. He got into bed with Iran as quick as he did Syria and his genocide of Kurds is not missed on Sunni Muslims who may not like Kurds but detest Alawites and Shiites far worse.

Such is the world of complex tribal warfare and using Israel or Israelis or Jews as a scapegoat to unite all Muslims no longer works.

It would not surporise me if Erdogan will be assassinated by his own Turkish military.

As for the Palestinian people they are now being used by Erdogan as Nasser did once before-as pawns. All Erdogan cares about is crushing Kurds to maintain control of their oil and to pressure Israel and Cyprus into coughing up natural has reserves. This is simply about Turkey's leader trying to bully his way into power over the Middle East.

Its only a matter of time until the US and Britain and therefore the rest of NATO abandon Turkey.

Turkey has already thrown its lot in with China, Iran, Pakistan, Venenezuela and Brazil in an alliance designed to contain the US, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf Emirate states.the EU and India over world oil prices and access.

Russia is desperately trying to play both sides but like China, its own internal problems with Muslim terrorists makes their alliances with Iran shaky at best. Turkey looks to want to bring Egypt, Syria and Yemen into its satellite of nations.

The problem is Turkey has overplayed the schism with Shiites and Sunnis and is trying to force the 2 into an alliance against the U.S. and Israel which won't work because gone are the days when everything can be blamed on Israel and the U.S.

The Arab world's own leaders long since replaced the big bad Yankees and Israelis as the daily threat to Muslim peoples in the Middle East and that won't change.

Edited September 19, 2011 by Rue

[GostHacked]

We're speaking in hypotheticals, anyways. Is there or is there not a maximum amount of Muslims you're willing to accept in Canada? You're backtracking, now... where you and several other suicidal leftists openly declared that you're all willing to live in a Canada where 100% of women wear hijabs. It's a question of principle, and I expected you to engage in evasion so as to avoid an truth you're uncomfortable with. I said it before and I'll say it again - if you're really comfortable with an Islamic Canada (which is what 100% of women wearing hijabs would necessarily mean), then you're either lying or you're stupid.

Yes you are speaking hypothetically, hence the reason I am not taking it serious. And it's a total strawman anyways, because it won't happen. If your argument is hypothetical, then your protests are hypothetical as well.

I think without proper management Islam will continue to grow in Canada, as will the religiosity of self-described Muslims. Every day we're seeing more and more hijabs, and a greater proportion of the Canadian population is self-identifying as practising/religious Muslims. Canadians, as politically correct and pathetic as we've now become, are afraid to assert our cultural superiority. The consequence? Vulnerability to destruction via importing third-worlders from the garbage cans of the world (i.e. Somalia) who bring with them all of their barbarism, savagery, ignorance, hatreds, and inability to integrate meaningful into our economies while they sit on welfare in subsidized housing projects.

Speaking hypothetically of course!

[dre]

One other thing and I want your opinion on it because while I disagree with you one things I know one thing you are not-a hateful person. What I also know is you are not some sort of bleeding heart either.

Maybe in another thread more appropriate you can address his issue on problems assimilating new Canadians of religions or cultures that clash with our current "Western" values. I tend to think its a real issue, but I just don't see it with Muslims. I see it with many groups.

Ill respond quickly on this because its here.

First of all, this doesnt mean critisism of the level of assimilation of Muslims is not a valid concern, but I wanted to point out that the exact same thing has been said about virtually every other group of immigrants in the last century, and in general the first generation of immigrants DO assimilate slowly, but not so much the second or the third.

Also my direct experience (admittedly anecdotal, and very limited) paints a diferent picture. I know a small handful of muslims, and for the most part they seem pretty Canadian to me. They have Canadian friends, Canadian jobs. None of them wear much religious clothing at all, and none of the muslim women I know wear Hijabs or Burkas.

Having said that... There IS danger in letting in too many immigrants from a certain culture too fast, and we should make sure that immigration policy is sustainable, and that immigrants should come from a diverse set of cultures. Despite the Bobs aject idiocy, strawmen, and lies I have no interest in seeing Canada dominated by any one immigrant culture.

The problem is its hard to separate real concerns from xenophobia especially since theres the perception held by many that we are at war with people. Canada has a rich history of throwing immigrants under the bus during foreign conflicts that goes back a hundred years, involves all kinds of diferent groups.

The Wartime Elections Act disenfranchised all persons from "enemy alien" countries who had been naturalized since 1902.

Heres another interesting snippet I find relevant.

Under the authority of Section 38 of the Immigration Act, an Order in Council was issued prohibiting the entry of Doukhobors, Mennonitesand Hutterites, because of their "peculiar habits, modes of life and methods of holding property".

Chinese Immigration Act. This Act prohibited all Chinese immigrants except diplomats, students, children of Canadians and an investor class. Aside from protests from the Chinese community in Canada, there were virtually no voices of opposition. The day on which this Act came into force - July 1 - became known to Chinese Canadians as "Humiliation Day".

Heres another gem...

Order in Council (P.C. 2115) issued prohibiting the landing of "any immigrant of any Asiatic race", except wives and minor children of Canadian citizens (and few Asians could get citizenship).

Theres lots of other examples.

The point being its totally normal for Canadian born citizens to harbor resentment towards visible immigrant groups, and their customs which seem strange to us. The same thing has happened to every group thats ever come here from the Dukobours, to the Chinese, to the Irish, to Hindus and Sikhs. And when you look at the kinds of things we have done in the past Im pretty nervous about Government taking this kind of populist anti-immigrant sentiment and wrapping it in Government policy.

Edited September 19, 2011 by dre

[bud]

The pretext of criticizing Zionists turns you into someone who makes not so subtle holocaust inversion comments over and over again in an effort to suggest Zionists are Nazis.

zionism is an ideology. it's true that there are different subcategories, but the main agenda is what i have a problem with. which is accepting and justifying the removal of one group of people in order make room for another. that's fucked up.

there is a reason why there are over 1 million stateless people crammed in refugee camps around the world for the past 60+ years. it's because of zionism.

however, it is now 2011. there is no question whether israel has a right to exist (at least not by me and most of the world). the country of israel has been established (though under a questionable systematic approach) and it is here to stay. so if you continue to become hysterical, fling shit and cry that i'm against the existence of israel, i will continue to tell you to take your meds.

why are you, rue, a self-proclaimed moderate zionist, are not putting your full backing into establishing a palestinian state? why are you not condemning the real extremists like bob and the current israeli government for doing everything in their power to not allow a palestinian state?

if you're not able to back the establishment of a real and just palestinian state, you're just another bob. except that bob is a little more honest about who he really is.

[Rue]

Ill respond quickly on this because its here.

First of all, this doesnt mean critisism of the level of assimilation of Muslims is not a valid concern, but I wanted to point out that the exact same thing has been said about virtually every other group of immigrants in the last century, and in general the first generation of immigrants DO assimilate slowly, but not so much the second or the third.

Also my direct experience (admittedly anecdotal, and very limited) paints a diferent picture. I know a small handful of muslims, and for the most part they seem pretty Canadian to me. They have Canadian friends, Canadian jobs. None of them wear much religious clothing at all, and none of the muslim women I know wear Hijabs or Burkas.

Having said that... There IS danger in letting in too many immigrants from a certain culture too fast, and we should make sure that immigration policy is sustainable, and that immigrants should come from a diverse set of cultures. Despite the Bobs aject idiocy, strawmen, and lies I have no interest in seeing Canada dominated by any one immigrant culture.

The problem is its hard to separate real concerns from xenophobia especially since theres the perception held by many that we are at war with people. Canada has a rich history of throwing immigrants under the bus during foreign conflicts that goes back a hundred years, involves all kinds of diferent groups.

Heres another interesting snippet I find relevant.

Heres another gem...

Theres lots of other examples.

The point being its totally normal for Canadian born citizens to harbor resentment towards visible immigrant groups, and their customs which seem strange to us. The same thing has happened to every group thats ever come here from the Dukobours, to the Chinese, to the Irish, to Hindus and Sikhs. And when you look at the kinds of things we have done in the past Im pretty nervous about Government taking this kind of populist anti-immigrant sentiment and wrapping it in Government policy.

I think that presented a sympathetic approach to immigrants that was well stated. I of course agree with most all of it because I am the child of refugees so my bias is blatant.

Like most children of refugees and immigrants however I resent anyone coming to Canada who believes they are entitled to avoid assimilating.

There has to be a time when each one of us decides whether we wish to be Canadian first, or something else first.

I think the pendelum swung from complete intolerance (as per McKenzie King's rabid anti-semitic immigration prohibition against Jews) to the other extreme and that was sending the message anyone coming to Canada can use it as a convenient pit stop where you simply come when you need medical benefits.

I think some immigrants have been given the impression the moment they step foot on our soil they are entitled to make demands and place their individual needs before the state's. That is the message we have people in the 60's through early 2000's. Then 9-11 happened and suddenly the pendelum suddenly started swinging back. We suddenly began to notice certain Canadians were bringing their former country's hatreds and class hang ups with them and refusing to leave them behind.

So now we ask, how do we balance it all?

The other day I was in the gymn. Being a Jew we can of course be invisible without wearing a yamacha pr traditional garb. The man next to me explained how he was a devout Muslim and then spent 20 minutes engaged in an anti-U.S. tirade that turned into an anti-Israel tirade that morphed into a Jew world conspiracy tirade. He spewed vile hatred and I finally had to tell him to shut up. He was genuinely shocked and accused me of being anti Muslim because I said he was inciting hatred and should be quiet. I never once referred to his views.

I did not even bother to respond. He did utter some more comments to me and I simply told the attendant to tell him to not address me. Sometimes silence is the best way to deal with such things. My preference would have been to punch his face in.

I am frustrated because I am part of an immigrant people but I know what it is like to be targetted by new and old Canadians equally with the same stereotypes.

It constantly arises in debate on this forum with Israel and Palestinians and it renders both people crude indirect pawns in a larger dialogue of intolerance.

All I can say is my ancestors never believed a country as tolerant as Canada was possible and I am bloody grateful for living here and not having to live in fear of being a Jew and being able to live with many different peoples as corny as that may sound.

I also do not have problems with Christian traditions at Christmas or the fact this country was founded by aboriginal peoples and then has a history of people coming from the Christian countries of France and Britain. I have no problems with all the other cultures, religions and ethnicities here. If anything I hate everyone equally for the same reasons.

A jackass is a jackass.

I dismiss people like Bud and their agendas clear as can be because I believe they come to engage in negative generalizations of a particular targetted group they hate.

For me the dialogue in the Middle East is simple. You have two people with equal rights unable to sit at a table and work it out because of all the jack asses insisting on interupting and speaking for them.

What needs to happen is we need to take all those jackasses and lock them in a room and bombard them with music from Celine Dion and Rita McNeil.

Its the only thing that will shut them up.

All kidding aside I do believe one day Palestinians and Israelis will be able to find each other despite all the third parties and terrorists trying to prevent that.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Rue

[BC_chick]

Mobile phones and MLF don't go well together, I didn't realise I added a post. Oops... and carry on.

Edited September 20, 2011 by BC_chick

[Bob]

zionism is an ideology. it's true that there are different subcategories, but the main agenda is what i have a problem with. which is accepting and justifying the removal of one group of people in order make room for another. that's fucked up.

there is a reason why there are over 1 million stateless people crammed in refugee camps around the world for the past 60+ years. it's because of zionism.

however, it is now 2011. there is no question whether israel has a right to exist (at least not by me and most of the world). the country of israel has been established (though under a questionable systematic approach) and it is here to stay. so if you continue to become hysterical, fling shit and cry that i'm against the existence of israel, i will continue to tell you to take your meds.

why are you, rue, a self-proclaimed moderate zionist, are not putting your full backing into establishing a palestinian state? why are you not condemning the real extremists like bob and the current israeli government for doing everything in their power to not allow a palestinian state?

if you're not able to back the establishment of a real and just palestinian state, you're just another bob. except that bob is a little more honest about who he really is.

I've explained before that Zionism isn't predicated on the removal of anyone. The displacement of Arabs/Muslims who then transformed themselves into the "Palestinians" after June 1967 occurred as a result of their own rejection of Jewish independence, and rejecting an extended hand of friendship from the early Zionists. They have nobody to blame but themselves.

And spare me the talk of "refugee camps". These "refugee camps" are permanent towns and cities, complete with plumbing, electricity, wireless internet and phone service, waste removal, schools, hospitals, police officer and stations, fire stations, and every other essential service and most luxuries you can imagine.

Who cares if they don't have a passport that belongs to a "state" with a seat at the UNGA? "Stateless" is so overused, and they seem to be doing quite well for themselves (considering they are the biggest welfare-cases in the world) considering this "disadvantage".

[bud]

Who cares if they don't have a passport that belongs to a "state" with a seat at the UNGA? "Stateless" is so overused, and they seem to be doing quite well for themselves

sounds like an argument for rejecting a state for jews. the jews are doing quite well in america, canada and europe. why the need for a state?

double standards.

[Bonam]

sounds like an argument for rejecting a state for jews. the jews are doing quite well in america, canada and europe. why the need for a state?

1. Because the state already exists.

2. Because thousands of years of history have very consistently shown that Jews in other nations face discrimination, oppression, and extermination. Sometimes there's a relative easing for a couple generations, like we had after WWII, but it never lasts.

[jacee]

And bud is a provocateur.

[Wild Bill]

What needs to happen is we need to take all those jackasses and lock them in a room and bombard them with music from Celine Dion and Rita McNeil.

Its the only thing that will shut them up.

Sorry Rue but as a civilized people we cannot do that!

It would be a war crime!