Has Al-Qaida won?

[Tilter]

Probably the reason for this false impression is that many men in Afghanistan do wear Turbans, as descendants of Muhammad in Iran and Iraq do too (in the case of descendents, or "siyyids", it's always a green turban, but even there it's optional and not a religious obligation). In most Muslim countries though, very few men wear turbans, so it really is a regional thing and not so linked to religion. If we're looking at religious obligation, or turbans being worn as a religious prescription as opposed to simply local cultural norms, then definitely we're looking at Sikhism, not Islam.

not a religious obligation)

Is the killing of all infidels also "not a religious obligation" or is it just all in good fun?

[Oleg Bach]

Islam is a corporate state of mind..they won because they are evil and have nothing to do with God - we lose because we do not even have a state of mind - we percieve ourselves as good yet we have no belief system. It is probably a stronger postion to be evil with a purpose than be good with out a purpose. We want to save the world but do nothing to accomplish this - Islam wants to destroy the world and do all in their power to make this happen...I would say that the man in the cave came out on top compared to the man in the board room with the pace maker......The only real winners here on the western end are the security contractors who are worse than the terrorists - at least the terrorists are honest about harming our society - our corporates lie to us.

[Moonlight Graham]

Were the lives lost in WWII by our govs militaries and hired guns "needless" too?

No.

And what about all the lives being lost in Iraq before the war - was it more acceptable to let that go on endlessly? And life under the Taliban - was that preferable to a democracy? This is what I don't get - the singling out of the deaths from this war as somehow more "evil" than the unavoidable innocent deaths in other wars - along with the idea that "no good" has come of this. That's just a false statement, whether one agrees with the war(s) or not.

I never said that "no good' has come from the Iraq War, and if you're talking about the sanctions before the war, those were also horrible, though a bit of progress was being made with the "oil for food" program. The previous sanctions were not sustainable, they were awful for Iraqis. If a way to contain Saddam while not starving the country was not attainable, then let the Bush admin and other govs make an honest case about invasion. Bring that rationale to the people. Don't make up horsecrap lies to invade for reasons that had nothing to do with humanitarian concern.

And life under the Taliban - was that preferable to a democracy?

It's not a democracy, it's a democracy-by-gunpoint. When NATO/US leaves, we'll see how long it stays a democracy, and i'm not very optimistic. But here's hoping i'm wrong.

Innocent civilians were targeted and killed on 9-11 and in previous terrorist attacks and subsequent terrorist attacks. Do you think we should have just ignored that - and done nothing? Just wait for it to go away? Just let innocent people continue to be targeted and killed? What kind of a message do you think that would have sent after an attack like 9-11? You don't think that would have emboldened them - and led to more endless tragedy?

I would say an attack on al-Qaeda in Afghanistan was definitely necessary. I disagree that a full-scale regime change was wise when weighing the costs/benefits, because fighting the Taliban (who didn't even attack the West) is taking over a decade with mediocre results, and when we leave there's an excellent chance that the pseudo-democracy in place will become authoritarian via coup (possibly by the people we ourselves are training/equiping) or plain corruption. IMO NATO/US has a really stupid strategy. Why focus so much on the Taliban (a much tougher opponent), when al-Qaeda is the real threat?

Edited September 13, 2011 by Moonlight Graham

[jbg]

Is the killing of all infidels also "not a religious obligation" or is it just all in good fun?

It satisfies an almost sexual urge.

[Oleg Bach]

MOB rule is also called democracy - and Al-Qaida is also mob rule...I would say that both fucntion through hate - people get elected because they hate the other guy - not because they like the new one to be - I just don't understand the idea of hate -just not brought up that way - to have this seething feeling of internal murderous rage - and walk about with a smile on my face - the world is full of these fools - and the worst part is that they run our systems.