Constitutional Reform

[August1991]

Guy Lonechild has already had a tough month as head of Saskatchewan’s most powerful first nations organization.

First he was suspended. Then he was locked out after winning a court order to go back to work. Now he faces outright dismissal.

G&M

This is largely an issue for English-Canadians, not French-Canadians. IMV, Canada needs to reform its constitution to change the federal government's obligations to aboriginals.

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I understand that we Canadians - whether French or English, Catholic or Protestant, tend to be pragmatic, polite. Whether Labrador, northern BC, Quebec or Fort McMurray, we accept a special status according to circumstance.

But this special status for aboriginals has its limits, and I think that aboriginals have abused this constitutional limit.

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Much more fundamentally, aboriginals are smart people, know this land. Yet, too many aboriginals are in jail, illiterate. In this, the Canadian state has failed.

Edited September 1, 2011 by August1991

[Smallc]

This is largely an issue for English-Canadians, not French-Canadians.

What? How?

[Tilter]

G&M

This is largely an issue for English-Canadians, not French-Canadians. IMV, Canada needs to reform its constitution to change the federal government's obligations to aboriginals.

-----

I understand that we Canadians - whether French or English, Catholic or Protestant, tend to be pragmatic, polite. Whether Labrador, northern BC, Quebec or Fort McMurray, we accept a special status according to circumstance.

But this special status for aboriginals has its limits, and I think that aboriginals have abused this constitutional limit.

----

Much more fundamentally, aboriginals are smart people, know this land. Yet, too many aboriginals are in jail, illiterate. In this, the Canadian state has failed.

Wouldn't it be the Aboriginals that have failed?-- remember, they are a "selfgoverning" independent nation (independent except for the fiscal dependence that they rely on, the largess that falls from Ottawa like Manna from heaven, the continual bleating about the size of that "manna" crop and the MORE that they will always need)

[CANADIEN]

Wouldn't it be the Aboriginals that have failed?-- remember, they are a "selfgoverning" independent nation (independent except for the fiscal dependence that they rely on, the largess that falls from Ottawa like Manna from heaven, the continual bleating about the size of that "manna" crop and the MORE that they will always need)

You mean "self-governing nations" that can hardly do anything without all kinds of permssion from ottawa.

The system was designed to screw them, and it manages to do that very well. But well, it's THEIR fault.

Edited September 1, 2011 by CANADIEN

[cybercoma]

*waits patiently for charter.rights to show up and post*

[Argus]

G&M

This is largely an issue for English-Canadians, not French-Canadians.

Would you like to explain your meaning there?

IMV, Canada needs to reform its constitution to change the federal government's obligations to aboriginals.

I definitely believe there needs to be immense changes, yes.

I understand that we Canadians - whether French or English, Catholic or Protestant, tend to be pragmatic, polite. Whether Labrador, northern BC, Quebec or Fort McMurray, we accept a special status according to circumstance.

But this special status for aboriginals has its limits, and I think that aboriginals have abused this constitutional limit.

Well, I'd say the whole system is a train wreck, and the incompetence and corruption of so many native governments are a direct result of that system. I don't think simply allowing them to govern themselves without oversight is going to cut it, given that. But I do think that the native governments need to be redrawn under someone's supervision, and more openness required of how they spend money and make decisions. There are too many tiny bands with councils larger than you'd find governing populations many times their size, all earning more than Harper does. And they spend money according to croneyism and nepotism. I do think they need more powers to be able to make more decisions, but not until they're under a requirement to govern and spend money according to the same sorts of rules as other levels of government.

Much more fundamentally, aboriginals are smart people, know this land. Yet, too many aboriginals are in jail, illiterate. In this, the Canadian state has failed.

Again, it's the system. When you grow up on a reserve where most of the population has no job, and you have no job, and you have no hope of a job, well, what are you going to do but get drunk, do drugs, and get into trouble?

[Argus]

*waits patiently for charter.rights to show up and post*

Oh please now. Don't invoke that name. The thread will go to hell in an instant..

[Bonam]

Again, it's the system. When you grow up on a reserve where most of the population has no job, and you have no job, and you have no hope of a job, well, what are you going to do but get drunk, do drugs, and get into trouble?

There is no wall that keeps natives blocked up on their "reserve". I have met several natives who went out into the "outside world" and did quite well for themselves, including a professor, an entrepreneur in the tech industry, and an aerospace engineering grad student. Natives are not some kind of neanderthals who can only fish and hunt, they are just as capable of competing and excelling in the real economy as anyone else. While I agree the system as a whole is a disaster, no individual can fault it for their own failure.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Bonam

[cybercoma]

Again, it's the system. When you grow up on a reserve where most of the population has no job, and you have no job, and you have no hope of a job, well, what are you going to do but get drunk, do drugs, and get into trouble?

Who are you and what did you do with Argus? I don't ever remember agreeing with you on anything.

[Smallc]

There is no wall that keeps natives blocked up on their "reserve".

The walls are psychological, and very much a reality.

[Wild Bill]

Again, it's the system. When you grow up on a reserve where most of the population has no job, and you have no job, and you have no hope of a job, well, what are you going to do but get drunk, do drugs, and get into trouble?

Sez who? I grew up in the country. The nearest girl my age was a couple of miles away. So I didn't visit her that often. 'Course, part of that was because she was rather bitchy but still, it shows I was on my own a lot. I had friends at school but seeing them afterwards often involved more walking time there and back than play time.

I never got into any trouble! I ate a huge number of books and spent hours every day in the basement, blowing fuses learning about radios and electronics.

Do you have to be white to learn how to string an antenna up in a tree? To learn how to pick up short wave broadcasts from all over the world?

And what about music? Some of the finest musicians in Canada came from reserves. They CHOSE to put out the effort and discipline to learn how to play an instrument! Others CHOSE to get into trouble!

Sorry Angus! We all have free choice. We are measured not by how much crap falls on us over our lives. That tends to average out for everybody. Rather, we are measured by how we cope!

Some of us try to do something positive. Others sit around and look for someone else to blame.

That's the long and the short of it!

[eyeball]

Sez who? I grew up in the country. The nearest girl my age was a couple of miles away. So I didn't visit her that often. 'Course, part of that was because she was rather bitchy but still, it shows I was on my own a lot. I had friends at school but seeing them afterwards often involved more walking time there and back than play time.

I never got into any trouble! I ate a huge number of books and spent hours every day in the basement, blowing fuses learning about radios and electronics.

Do you have to be white to learn how to string an antenna up in a tree? To learn how to pick up short wave broadcasts from all over the world?

And what about music? Some of the finest musicians in Canada came from reserves. They CHOSE to put out the effort and discipline to learn how to play an instrument! Others CHOSE to get into trouble!

Sorry Angus! We all have free choice. We are measured not by how much crap falls on us over our lives. That tends to average out for everybody. Rather, we are measured by how we cope!

Some of us try to do something positive. Others sit around and look for someone else to blame.

That's the long and the short of it!

You chose to be born to and raised by parents who weren't kidnapped by the state and raped?

Good for you.

Edited September 2, 2011 by eyeball

[g_bambino]

You chose to be born to and raised by parents who weren't kidnapped by the state and raped?

eyeball trying to win an argument with pure hyperbole. What a shocker.

[g_bambino]

The system was designed to screw them...

How so?

[cybercoma]

eyeball trying to win an argument with pure hyperbole. What a shocker.

That did actually happen to many people though. So it's more of an exaggeration than hyperbole.

[Argus]

I never got into any trouble! I ate a huge number of books and spent hours every day in the basement, blowing fuses learning about radios and electronics.

Do you have to be white to learn how to string an antenna up in a tree? To learn how to pick up short wave broadcasts from all over the world?

But you have to be able to afford to buy the radio and antennae. Given the endemic poverty on most reserves the likelihood parents would be able to furnish their kids with tons of books and electronics to play with is pretty damned unlikely.

Edited September 2, 2011 by Argus

[Argus]

There is no wall that keeps natives blocked up on their "reserve".

No, there was no wall keeping people living in Newfoundland all those years when there was no fish, no oil, and few jobs either. Physically, you can pick up and move somewhere else where economics are better. But it's not that easy to leave behind everything and everyone you know and go out into the world alone, especially when you don't have a lot of money. Sure, some people do it. But many just can't bring themselves to leave everything behind and venture out into the strange world beyond. We are all social creatures. We are all attached to people in our lives. Abandoning them in hopes of a better life can be something of a desperation move depending on your circumstances.

You know, I bitch about the cold weater. I hate it. HATE HATE HATE! So a friend of mine called me on it and pointed out I could just fly south and stay there for six months, or, for that matter, set myself up in the Virgin Islands or somewhere. I do have the money. But frankly, the thought of flying far away from all my friends and family for a long period of time is not all that attractive. So I put up with the &^%$&* snow.

[g_bambino]

That did actually happen to many people though. So it's more of an exaggeration than hyperbole.

It did happen, of course. However, putting aside the question of its relevance to constitutional matters, making a claim that every First Nations individual today is the child of a person who was abused at a Residential School seems to take the claim from mere exaggeration right into the realms of hyperbole.

[c/e]

Edited September 2, 2011 by g_bambino

[Wild Bill]

You chose to be born to and raised by parents who weren't kidnapped by the state and raped?

Good for you.

Again, how do you account for Robbie Robertson, Graham Greene, Derek Miller and so many other great musicians who grew up on those same reserves?

[Wild Bill]

But you have to be able to afford to buy the radio and antennae. Given the endemic poverty on most reserves the likelihood parents would be able to furnish their kids with tons of books and electronics to play with is pretty damned unlikely.

No, Argus! I had zero money. I used to collect blobs of solder out of old chassis and re-use it! Virtually all my parts came from discarded radio and tvs that relatives, neighbours and friends of my parents gave me. I cracked open a power transformer out of a radio to remove the enameled wire from the windings to make my antennae that I hung up in the trees.

I had NO way to get into town to buy parts! Even if there was a bus I had no money for the fare anyway.

Surely if the kids can find money for booze and gas to sniff they could find some broken radios.

Still, that's picking apart my model and not my point. Times have changed and my way might not be practical today. The point is that there are surely others today that would be!

It's just that you have to TRY first! It seems that's the part that's missing. Easier to wallow in victim status, I guess.

[Saipan]

But you have to be able to afford to buy the radio and antennae. Given the endemic poverty on most reserves the likelihood parents would be able to furnish their kids with tons of books and electronics to play with is pretty damned unlikely.

Libraries are free! Electronic junk is too!

We had to crawl into shot up German tanks and other vehicles to scavenge tubes (RV12 RV24 and such) to build the usual two tube radios, as 14 year olds. Non of our parents had somne vehicle to drive us anywhere. We walked and bike for miles. Today native kids can't even build their own canoes - or any boat.

[Saipan]

No, there was no wall keeping people living in Newfoundland all those years when there was no fish, no oil, and few jobs either. Physically, you can pick up and move somewhere else where economics are better. But it's not that easy to leave behind everything and everyone you know and go out into the world alone

What do you mean "into the world alone"? Did they have to skip a country at night under considerable risk, then cross the ocean, and then learn whole different language to survive?

[b} Or were they in Canada ALREADY? People in Newfoundland already speak (almost) English. So whatza problem?

But many just can't bring themselves to leave everything behind and venture out into the strange world beyond.

Oh Canada the weird. One day you eat 'flied lice', seafood, saparot..... and next month you're sitting at MacDonalds eating some strange greasy sticks.

You know, I bitch about the cold weater. I hate it. HATE HATE HATE!

I goda good news. Global warming is comming. Eventually, I heard.

[Wild Bill]

Today native kids can't even build their own canoes - or any boat.

Yeah, one generation put a man on the Moon. The next generation sits on its ass and expects the Moon to be handed to them!

Edited September 2, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Bonam]

No, there was no wall keeping people living in Newfoundland all those years when there was no fish, no oil, and few jobs either. Physically, you can pick up and move somewhere else where economics are better. But it's not that easy to leave behind everything and everyone you know and go out into the world alone

Get a friend or two and go out "into the world" together with them.

Sure, some people do it. But many just can't bring themselves to leave everything behind and venture out into the strange world beyond.

Ok and because they can't bring themselves to get off their asses and do something with their lives I'm supposed to feel sorry for them?

We are all social creatures. We are all attached to people in our lives. Abandoning them in hopes of a better life can be something of a desperation move depending on your circumstances.

A desperation move that created the nations of Canada and the US. Clearly, plenty of people chose to make such moves and succeeded in doing so.

You know, I bitch about the cold weater. I hate it. HATE HATE HATE! So a friend of mine called me on it and pointed out I could just fly south and stay there for six months, or, for that matter, set myself up in the Virgin Islands or somewhere. I do have the money. But frankly, the thought of flying far away from all my friends and family for a long period of time is not all that attractive. So I put up with the &^%$&* snow.

That's fine, and your choice. But if you were just miserably sitting in a snowy wasteland feeling sorry for yourself and expecting the government to pay the heating bill, it wouldn't be fine.

[CANADIEN]

Libraries are free! Electronic junk is too!

And how many libraries are there on isolated reserves, pray tell?

Edited September 2, 2011 by CANADIEN