G20 police aggression

[Guest Derek L]

Should “convicted Pedophiles for child porn” be allowed to demonstrate their cause in public spaces? What about if someone has the urge to shout “FIRE” in a crowded theatre?

[dre]

Technically I think when a large group of protesters clogs up the street and sidewalks they are probably in violation of various minor non-criminal infractions around proper use. However its kinda silly to assume those kind of minor infractions supercede the publics right to protest.

If city ordinances and bylaws around proper use supercede our charter right to protest then cities would basically be able to ban all forms of public protest.

This is a weak argument in my opinion, and confronting a large group of people that is peacefully over proper use of the public space they are walking on is an extremely stupid thing for police to do anyways. Thats a good way to START a riot that isnt there.

Seems like a sad attempt to justify the illegal actions by authorities in this case, and label ALL protesters as criminals. I suggest that anyone who catches themselves thinking this way spends some time in one of the many countries where public protests ARE illegal and met with violence by the police/military/government. Carefull what you wish for

[jacee]

A small portion of the public……A relatively small amount of people publicly demonstrating against cause x, even if all intentions where fora peaceful demonstration, with an end result being broken storefronts and riot cops in the streets is not in my interest.

Hell no! Who wants women to have the vote, a democracy instead of the oligarchy of the Family Compact, redistribution of the illgotten wealth of the gougers?

I can see your point. Ya it's better to just cast our eyes down and tip our hats and our pockets to the lairds and let them run us into the ground for greed and sadistic pleasure.

Or we can stand up for our hard won rights and expose and correct anti-democratic forces.

Perhaps the people demonstrating against cause x should change tactics if they want to effect change…..Start a online petition….a facebook page….find a famous musician to perform a song/public service announment…..hire a PR company….etc

Look at the Red Cross, local SPCA or Salvation Army…..There causes are generally viewed in a positive light by the public……….The demonstrators clogging up the streets need a effective marketing campaign….

Some good thoughts there.

You do that.

We all paid for the streets.

We all pay the police and governments to work for us.

We all subsidize the corporations.

Protesters only block a few streets a few times. The rest are still more than your share at a given time. Fender benders block roads all the time. Perhaps you could protest them. Or counter-protest demonstrations. That's the beauty of free expression. Whatever turns your crank.

[Saipan]

Ya it's better to just cast our eyes down and tip our hats and our pockets to the lairds and let them run us into the ground for greed and sadistic pleasure.

Like they did in Soviet Union and Cuba.

[g_bambino]

But maybe the public demonstrations are in everyone's interest, as it's one of the fundamental values of democracy, and therefore others should be considerate of the demonstrators.

I don't think anyone is questioning whether or not people should have the right to demonstrate: and to be clear, they should. What I'm speaking about specifically is demonstrators taking over a street without prior warning and organisation with other parties who might be affected; essentially, without thought for anyone but themselves and anything but their own cause. It (like your own words) indicates that the demonstrators assume everyone else shares their ideals. Either that, or they think anyone who doesn't can just shove off somewhere else.

Democracy, in fact, relies on differing opinions and those who hold them coexisting in a mutually respectful manner; there will be other people who disagree with or don't care about the demonstrators' cause. Protestors who don't take into consideration them and their equal right to use the same public spaces show an ochlocratic, uncollegial side that doesn't mesh with democracy.

Again: If there's prior dialogue, arrangement, compromise, and public preparedness: no problem. Gathering a multitude and taking over streets without warning to or even thought for anyone but yourselves: not cool, as far as I see it.

[sp]

Edited August 20, 2011 by g_bambino

[g_bambino]

It's a protected right...

Can you show where gathering a crowd to clog a public road and prevent non-protesters from using said road for its intended purpose is set out as a protected right?

[g_bambino]

Hell no! Who wants women to have the vote, a democracy instead of the oligarchy of the Family Compact, redistribution of the illgotten wealth of the gougers?

I can see your point. Ya it's better to just cast our eyes down and tip our hats and our pockets to the lairds and let them run us into the ground for greed and sadistic pleasure.

Are you capable of coming back from way over there on the extreme fringe? Sounds like you're choking on hyperbole out there.

[Shakeyhands]

G_Bambino... the police actions against people people protesting in a number of so called protest zones and agreed to areas is indefenceabale. Their demeanor and nothing short of violent actions are as well. Yes, tere were some arseholes that took advantage and commited crimes, with the amount of survelience and undercover officers mingling with the crown I would think it would have been simple for them to isolate and identify many who were doing that. The protester excercising ther right to peaceful protest, and the kettling and arrest (for no reason) of those people was an egregious violation of their rights was disgusting. I'm at a lose as to how you can defend the actions of the police, and I also feel that there is a concerted effort by the authorities, from the police right up to the PMO that is purposefully avoiding an inquiry because they know it too.

[jacee]

Should “convicted Pedophiles for child porn” be allowed to demonstrate their cause in public spaces?

Shouted down by a mob of stockbrokers, office workers, street people and shoppers freely expressing their rage. Arrested for their own protection. Charged with counseling to commit...

What about if someone has the urge to shout “FIRE” in a crowded theatre?

Trampled, arrested and charged.

Nobody promised that freedom of expression was without consequences in responses from others also freely expressing. However you hit on the fact that there are verbal crimes - counselling to commit a crime... , endangering public safety... that are crimes in themselves.

These are not typical political demonstrations.

[jacee]

Pissing the public off by chaining themselves to light posts and chanting “Stop Bush & the New World Order from using nuclear weapons to clear cut the whales for oil” doesn’t seem all that effective to me.......

Why would that piss anyone off? That's friggin hilarious! Sounds like street theatre.

[jacee]

Are you capable of coming back from way over there on the extreme fringe? Sounds like you're choking on hyperbole out there.

Only for effect.

Eta: "tired of tipping their hats to the lairds" is how my elders explained why our family migrated to America.

Unfortunately, the lairds sent their second sons (without inheritance) here too, to continue the pillaging of our common public property, but here we stand,

"In a young and poor country where the sons of rich and favoured families alone receive education at the public expence - where the many must toil to support the extortions and exactions of a few; where the hard earnings of the people are lavished on an Aristocracy, who repay their ill timed generosity with contempt and insult; it requires no ordinary nerve in men of moderate circumstances and humble pretensions, to stand forward and boldly protest against measures which are fast working the ruin of the Province."(Joseph Howe, Nova Scotia)

Edited August 20, 2011 by jacee

[Thorn]

It's nice if police respect the agreements they make with protesters, but unfortunately in this and other situations they don't. Instead, they use the agreement to create sitting ducks out of protesters.

I used to believe it was good to negotiate agreements with police but never again

Just because the TO cops acted like morons doesn't mean you can just set up shop in the middle of a road without notice. That just makes violence more likely.

The Tamils are entitled to free expression.

They weren't entitled to express themselves on a major freeway.

Sure there were safety issues, but that week their Tamil friends and family in Sri Lanka were being chased down and killed en masse in complete violation of all law and no other country would raise a hand or a voice to help. They were desperate and extremely agitated. Police handled it right.

There are a lot of ethnic groups in Canada with a lot of international concerns, many of which the rest of us don't share. The aim of this group wasn't so much free expression, or they could have done that at Queens Park. Their aim was to force people to pay attention, which is an entirely different thing, by blocking a major freeway and stopping traffic. No, they should have been arrested.

[Thorn]

Ah, yes. That's true of some streets, I believe. But, in the chaos of those two days, I am fairly convinced that other roads, not designated as march routes, were taken over by crowds.

As far as I'm aware, all the official marches moved on the designated routes. The major notable group which moved off down an unaproved route would be the idiots who moved off to riot, and who the police left completely alone to do their business.

[Thorn]

Should “convicted Pedophiles for child porn” be allowed to demonstrate their cause in public spaces?

Sure. As long as they don't block the roads.

[Thorn]

Shouted down by a mob of stockbrokers, office workers, street people and shoppers freely expressing their rage. Arrested for their own protection. Charged with counseling to commit...

Trampled, arrested and charged.

I find it pretty odd that someone who is championing free speech and expression is suddenly saying that when the opinion being expressed is unpopular that those people ought to be beaten by the public and arrested.

Nobody promised that freedom of expression was without consequences in responses from others also freely expressing.

The only consequence to freely expressing an unpopular opinion ought to be that people disagree with that opinion, and maybe think the worse of you for having it.

[jacee]

Just because the TO cops acted like morons doesn't mean you can just set up shop in the middle of a road without notice. That just makes violence more likely.

The police are responsible for preventing violence against demonstrators ... I assume you mean by disgruntled motorists ...? Who are responsible for their own illegal actions Interpersonal violence is not acceptable of course.

They weren't entitled to express themselves on a major freeway.

There are a lot of ethnic groups in Canada with a lot of international concerns, many of which the rest of us don't share. The aim of this group wasn't so much free expression, or they could have done that at Queens Park. Their aim was to force people to pay attention, which is an entirely different thing, by blocking a major freeway and stopping traffic. No, they should have been arrested.

You do recall that the G20 police attacked cooperative protesters and innocent bystanders in QP too? No one will ever agree to that plan again!

Getting people to pay attention, learn about and think about the issues, is the purpose of public demonstration and we have that right. Violent road rage is not a right. You cannot, for example, attack motorists whose fender bender (eg, from texting while driving) is delaying you either.

Is it really delay, not demonstration per se, that might enrage some to personal violence?

Are those not likely the ones who fear real democracy, prefering to keep 'the masses' hungry,indebted and thus fearful and docile?

[Oleg Bach]

So - now we know. That when corporate autocrats that reside in Tononto - want to show you their power - they do...even the chief of police does not know from where the order came down from...let the kids wreck some stuff and our insurance guys will take care of it - but if it is to much - then the billy clubs come down...sounds fair to me.

[GostHacked]

Was that actually taking place at Queen and Spadina at the time?

You should see the videos and find out for yourself. I'll even help you out a bit.

[Bonam]

Is it really delay, not demonstration per se, that might enrage some to personal violence?

Are those not likely the ones who fear real democracy, prefering to keep 'the masses' hungry,indebted and thus fearful and docile?

People stuck in traffic on their commute to their 9-5 job are the elite that are trying to keep "the masses" hungry and docile? What kind of twisted perception of reality do you live in?

[Oleg Bach]

My eldest daughter was living near the Queen and Spadina intersection where the herding took place. I was watching a live report on TV - she was at the edge of the mass as an on looker - Monitoring the whole thing...from the comfort of my chair I said - "time to get out of there - they are closing in" so she slowly wander off to the way side and was one of the human animals not captured....It could have been in the fact that she had two dogs with her and the cops did not want to bring discomfort to the mutts. Maybe next time we have a G2o - all those that go into a public area should bring an animal for protection...seeing that dogs in TO are treated like kings.

[Guest Derek L]

Hell no! Who wants women to have the vote, a democracy instead of the oligarchy of the Family Compact, redistribution of the illgotten wealth of the gougers?

I can see your point. Ya it's better to just cast our eyes down and tip our hats and our pockets to the lairds and let them run us into the ground for greed and sadistic pleasure.

Or we can stand up for our hard won rights and expose and correct anti-democratic forces.

Some good thoughts there.

You do that.

We all paid for the streets.

We all pay the police and governments to work for us.

We all subsidize the corporations.

Protesters only block a few streets a few times. The rest are still more than your share at a given time. Fender benders block roads all the time. Perhaps you could protest them. Or counter-protest demonstrations. That's the beauty of free expression. Whatever turns your crank.

I’m not disputing the public’s right to protest, I’m 100% onboard, but my beef is the lack of results the G20ers are achieving………….They’ve become a nuisance and appear to demonstrate for the sake of it……….From my perspective, all they seem to do is to piss-off the public, rip-up a given cities center and cost the taxpayers thousands (millions?) in extra policing and court costs………..

If Microsoft, McDonalds and Nike want to promote a new product, or the SPCA & Red Cross their perspective causes, they don’t do it in such a way that holds up traffic, smashes windows or requires the police dispensing tear gas upon them……….

I don’t see any positive results from all these G20 protests……….What this tells me is that the protestors are either not mature and/or smart enough to effect “positive change” with their cause or they’re just making a noise and a fuss for shits and giggles………Be that as it may, seeing these idiots getting tear gassed and hit with riot batons is slowly becoming a form of entertainment……….If life gives you lemons………hey, free lemons

[cybercoma]

seeing these idiots getting tear gassed and hit with riot batons is slowly becoming a form of entertainment

Given this comment, you're obviously the idiot.

[Guest Derek L]

Given this comment, you're obviously the idiot.

But I’ve yet to be tear gassed or have my skull cracked by the police.....Causes I personally deem worthy (SPCA, Red Cross, Conservative Party of Canada, Vancouver Arts Club, BC Wildlife Federation) I donate time and money towards, and see results on my investment....And I have haven’t been handcuffed, finger printed or spent a night in jail for my troubles....

Who’s the real idiot?

[Oleg Bach]

Given this comment, you're obviously the idiot.

An idiot is some one excluded from something exclusive.

[Oleg Bach]

I got called a lap dog....Jezzz - wish that was true - I would be in the lap of luxury if that was the case.