The "growth economy" is not sustainable.

[Michael Hardner]

Here ya go...everything you would ever want to know about America's beloved interstate highway system and how it was funded. We just love it to death....and so do Canadians for lots of reasons.

I do love it. My favourite is the I80... but ... oops I feel a thread drift coming on... Favourite Interstates ? Or things lefty liberals love about America ? I have so many.

Oh, and you forgot to put in the link.

[bush_cheney2004]

Let's get out our high school and university marks then, and kick everybody off the board who didn't get at least an A- in trigonometry.

OK...but that is still a low standard!

Worst of all... there was a real artsy president elected in 1980 with a Bachelor of Arts, who was an actual ACTOR in Hollyweird ! They should have sent him back to Russia when he graduated...

He was also the governor of California before being so elected.

[bush_cheney2004]

Oh, and you forgot to put in the link.

Sorry....here ya go.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/faq.htm#question8

...and Canada forgot to put in an "inter-province".

[Michael Hardner]

He was also the governor of California before being so elected.

I didn't want to tarnish him any further than I already had.

Have they ever had a governor who wasn't an actor, rock star or dating one ?

[CPCFTW]

The wealth of the middle and lower classes is being redistributed to the rich threw inflation. Inflation is the hidden tax on the people that nobody seems to talk about.

Much of the western world's inflation is caused by printing money for the middle and lower class' entitlements. Want consumer prices to stabilize or drop? Stop printing money for homeless shelters, safe injection houses, welfare cheques, encouraging the hiring of immigrants, and whatever other pat yourself on the back brainchild you lefties come up with next. There's no magical pill for poverty.

[bush_cheney2004]

I didn't want to tarnish him any further than I already had.

You haven't tarnished him at all...better people have tried and failed.

Have they ever had a governor who wasn't an actor, rock star or dating one ?

Sure...use the tools that America/California have given you to find out for yourself.

[Wild Bill]

I think we have a winner folks...won't be long now.

Yep! It's been building for a while now. Another emigre from "rubble.com".

"Hit the road, Jack! And dontcha come back no more, no more!"

[Michael Hardner]

...and Canada forgot to put in an "inter-province".

That's ok - we have the Trans Canada, the world's longest highway, which allows passing and farm vehicles too.

Great read on the Interstate FAQs, by the way...

Yes, I know I'm drifting the thread, but this is somewhat on track. The economy is based on tax-serviced infrastructure and sustaining the Interstate system is done through taxes that persist today. More here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Highway_Trust_Fund_(United_States)

[Michael Hardner]

Sure...use the tools that America/California have given you to find out for yourself.

Are you sure? You are aware that Linda Rondstat was a rock star right ?

Anyway, why are you defending it?

Don't you hate it like every patriotic American ?

[bush_cheney2004]

That's ok - we have the Trans Canada, the world's longest highway, which allows passing and farm vehicles too.

Wow...you guys finally got more than two lanes? Excellent!

Yes, I know I'm drifting the thread, but this is somewhat on track. The economy is based on tax-serviced infrastructure and sustaining the Interstate system is done through taxes that persist today. More here:

I agree...Canada's economy is very very dependent on the US Interstate Highway System.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Don't you hate it like every patriotic American ?

No...I only hate Yankee wannabes screwing up the facts when they channel the USA.

[Wild Bill]

Let's get out our high school and university marks then, and kick everybody off the board who didn't get at least an A- in trigonometry.

Worst of all... there was a real artsy president elected in 1980 with a Bachelor of Arts, who was an actual ACTOR in Hollyweird ! They should have sent him back to Russia when he graduated...

That was never the point, Michael. The real perps are the school boards, who do a poor job with science and not much better with math. Then, when they have poor outcomes, they give themselves an alibi by declaring that many students find those subjects too hard and allow them to drop them very early, even in some areas as low as Grade 6! They then present Arts subjects as equivalents.

The problem is that science/math and Arts are NOT equivalents, Michael! They are also not necessarily that hard. They DO tend to require better teaching! That's a whole thread in itself.

The consequence is that students are short changed in subjects that help develop critical thinking. Probably the fact that maths and sciences tend to take more time to mark might have something to do with it as well. A grader has to read the replies (likely essay form!) to follow the student's thinking, in order to note what points he understands or what method he used to solve an equation.

There's a lack of balance, Michael! A severe one! Here in Hamilton an elementary teacher for maths or sciences can literally write their own ticket. They are scarce as hen's teeth! I doubt if it's any different anywhere else. That sort of imbalance cannot help but result in a lower capability in those subjects in our students.

Students should not be allowed to drop maths at all in High School, or heavy sciences like physics and chemistry. Except perhaps in only a few exceptional circumstances. Students and teachers have been given an extremely easy out and not surprisingly, most of them take it.

Without such critical thinking skills students are woefully ill-equipped to thrive after graduation. This includes making informed political choices.

Certainly it can explain paying 80 cents per kw/hr for solar electricity under McGuinty's MicroFit program while paying New York to take our excess power!

[Michael Hardner]

No...I only hate Yankee wannabes screwing up the facts when they channel the USA.

Can I really be called a Yankee wannabe, though, if I only want dual citizenship ? Think about it.

[Michael Hardner]

That was never the point, Michael.

Really, that's the point I get from your posts. You don't appear to respect people who do not have a background in science and math.

Certainly it can explain paying 80 cents per kw/hr for solar electricity under McGuinty's MicroFit program while paying New York to take our excess power!

Perhaps so, but there are lots of intelligent people out there whose main problem is that they're stubborn. Worse yet is the tea party generation who has been taught that their opinion on any topic is as valid as anybody's.

There are those who want to make it sound like democracy, but it's really just populism (you would call that socialism right?) at its worst.

[wyly]

That's ok - we have the Trans Canada, the world's longest highway, which allows passing and farm vehicles too.

Great read on the Interstate FAQs, by the way...

Yes, I know I'm drifting the thread, but this is somewhat on track. The economy is based on tax-serviced infrastructure and sustaining the Interstate system is done through taxes that persist today. More here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Highway_Trust_Fund_(United_States)

I was thinking Russia would have a longer national highway so I looked it up ...Australia has the longest, our's comes second...longest international highway is the Pan American...

[jacee]

... when they have poor outcomes ...

We do not have poor outcomes in Mathematics and Science internationally.

The overall performance of Canadian students in math and science are well above the OECD average and remain unchanged from previous PISA results Canada is outperformed only by seven countries in math and six countries in science.

http://cdnsba.org/all/education-in-canada/pisa-results-canadian-students-score-high-in-performance-canadian-education-system-scores-high-in-equity

Please see p 31 and 32 of the pdf report for graphic display of results for Canadian students: ”Measuring up: Canadian Results of the OECD PISA Study” 2009

Edited September 7, 2011 by jacee

[Wild Bill]

Really, that's the point I get from your posts. You don't appear to respect people who do not have a background in science and math.

Perhaps I have been excessive. It comes from frustration Michael but I admit that's no excuse.

It's not that I don't respect people, it's that I don't respect their opinions in areas that they obviously can't understand! People have opinions on all sorts of things. Don't bother asking me to give a useful opinion on anything to do with art. I can't draw a stick man without a ruler. I can't match my shirt colour to that of my tie.

Neither am I that good with people skills. I'm not so good at inspirational speeches. I am poor sometimes at following the wishes of the team if I am unconvinced they are going in the right direction.

But ask me about something that needs details addressed, like HOW a system can work, particularly with things like electricity or technology and because I took maths and sciences I believe I can offer a much more valuable opinion than that of the average man on the street.

They are totally different skill sets! We have become so egalitarian that we believe that just because everyone has the right to vote on something they also have an opinion that should be considered and respected. In many areas, this idea is totally bonkers! If you have no idea how to even repair a plug on a broken lamp, or even how a light bulb works, you really CAN"T understand enough of the underlying concepts to properly evaluate a McGuinty MicroFit program!

So the majority, because of its education, or rather lack of it in certain areas, feels it has the right to make decisions simply on the basis of consensus. Yet things like techology, such as the cost-effectiveness of different ways of generating or distributing it, don't care about a large consensus of ill-informed people. They work or they don't. Our job is to understand Nature's Laws, not formulate them!

[Michael Hardner]

Perhaps I have been excessive. It comes from frustration Michael but I admit that's no excuse.

Everyone has their biases, I'm sure.

They are totally different skill sets! We have become so egalitarian that we believe that just because everyone has the right to vote on something they also have an opinion that should be considered and respected. In many areas, this idea is totally bonkers!

I concur completely.

[Wild Bill]

We do not have poor outcomes in Mathematics and Science internationally.

http://cdnsba.org/all/education-in-canada/pisa-results-canadian-students-score-high-in-performance-canadian-education-system-scores-high-in-equity

Please see p 31 and 32 of the pdf report for graphic display of results for Canadian students: ”Measuring up: Canadian Results of the OECD PISA Study” 2009

My time is as valuable as yours. Why don't you simply answer two easy questions? First, obviously those students who kept math among their subjects would be more likely to do well. What percentage of our students takes maths and hard sciences all through El-Hi, compared to those countries that score ahead of us? Are we testing only 10% because that's all that chose to keep taking the subjects? ALL students take easier subjects like English and History! Not that many take maths and hard sciences. That's my main point! Tell me how well we do in maths and sciences among the same student percentages as those countries that beat us! Did China beat us testing 90% of its students while we only tested that 10% I suggested?

Second, are those countries that beat us out the same countries that are cleaning our clocks economically?

Actually, I have a third question. Does it show any rankings from a decade or two ago? What's the slope of the graph? Are we getting better or out-competed?

If I know those points then it might be worth my while to spend the time reading your link. If I don't, then I don't see how it would provide the context to make it actually useful and not just propaganda.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Wild Bill

[jacee]

My time is as valuable as yours. Why don't you simply answer two easy questions? First, obviously those students who kept math among their subjects would be more likely to do well. What percentage of our students takes maths and hard sciences all through El-Hi, compared to those countries that score ahead of us? Are we testing only 10% because that's all that chose to keep taking the subjects? ALL students take easier subjects like English and History! Not that many take maths and hard sciences. That's my main point! Tell me how well we do in maths and sciences among the same student percentages as those countries that beat us! Did China beat us testing 90% of its students while we only tested that 10% I suggested?

Second, are those countries that beat us out the same countries that are cleaning our clocks economically?

Actually, I have a third question. Does it show any rankings from a decade or two ago? What's the slope of the graph? Are we getting better or out-competed?

If I know those points then it might be worth my while to spend the time reading your link. If I don't, then I don't see how it would provide the context to make it actually useful and not just propaganda.

Sorry, I have to wash my hair. Are your reading skills weak or is it motivation you lack?

My recollection is ... we are definitely getting better. The drive for improvement began with students who are now in their late thirties.

Canada selects the random sample as per instructions. There' pressure for all countries to do the same. Some of the highest scoring countries may have systems organized in a manner that skew samples. We are doing very well, both genders too.

You will find your answers in the report, which is produced by the Canadian Ministers of Education according to international guidelines , overseen by OECD Organization for Economic and Cooperative Development, I believe.

You might also want to look at the TIMSS ... something International Mathematics and Science Survey, similar results, perhaps different grades.

I do somewhat agree with your point that people without appropriate information shouldn't be asked for opinion/decision, but I think the experts could provide the information - various scenarios - to them in layperson's language.

Edited September 8, 2011 by jacee

[Wild Bill]

Sorry, I have to wash my hair. Are your reading skills weak or is it motivation you lack?

My recollection is ... we are definitely getting better. The drive for improvement began with students who are now in their late thirties.

Canada selects the random sample as per instructions. There' pressure for all countries to do the same. Some of the highest scoring countries may have systems organized in a manner that skew samples. We are doing very well, both genders too.

You will find your answers in the report, which is produced by the Canadian Ministers of Education according to international guidelines , overseen by OECD Organization for Economic and Cooperative Development, I believe.

You might also want to look at the TIMSS ... something International Mathematics and Science Survey, similar results, perhaps different grades.

I do somewhat agree with your point that people without appropriate information shouldn't be asked for opinion/decision, but I think the experts could provide the information - various scenarios - to them in layperson's language.

Excuse me? I already have my opinions. YOU are asking me to change them! If you think that I will simply accept your views because you told me so or waste my time on a report that could well be just propaganda and not answer my questions JUST BECAUSE YOU TELL ME SO , forget it!

It's your rebuttal so it's YOUR responsibility to prove it!

So your "recollection is that things are getting better". So what? I have several decades of direct experience, from my own school days, that of nephews and nieces and more recently my own children that contradicts your recollections. You'll have to give me a better reason to spend my time on research to investigate YOUR recollections!

If we are doing so wonderfully in math, with the largest proportion of students taking it to Grade 12, then why did I, my nephews and nieces and my children all witness first hand options to drop math and see so many of our fellow students DO IT!

If we are doing so wonderfully in math, why is a math teacher for elementary schools in the Hamilton area as scarce as a politician's fulfilled promise? Schools are actually competing with each other and outright poaching at times. Most of them make do with teachers that have language degrees only, simply because they have no choice.

You challenge my points with only a link to some long .pdf, expecting me to peruse it with no guarantee it will properly answer my questions. You submit opinions 100% contradictory to the direct experience of myself, my relations and friends/neighbours who have had kids in school.

Then you insult me by suggesting that I must be illiterate or lazy. I read several books a week. The girls at Indigos's know me by name! How many do you read?

At least you didn't get profane again. Thanks for small mercies.

Life is too short. Another one for the 'ignore' button.

[jacee]

I can't copy and paste from the pdf but I do think the graphic results are very interesting, since we outperformed everyone but a few Asian nations.

You raise good questions and could get the answers from the report if you chose to and draw your own conclusions.

And then you could perhaps update your less than scientifically obtained opinion.

It's my responsibility to provide you with the information, not force feed it to you. You've been bragging about your science skills, so use them.

[jacee]

http://transitionvoice.com/2011/08/how-to-talk-about-the-end-of-growth-interview-with-richard-heinberg/

And, let’s face it, a car for a person in say 1910, 1915, that was a luxury item. That wasn't something you could just go out and pay cash for, not for most people. So we invented the consumer credit industry. When I say “we,” I mean the financial system. And car loans were a big part of that. And then the mortgage industry really took off after World War II Again, these were ways of growing the economy. Growing demand for products. Growing consumption. That produced more jobs It was all good. It was all done with the best of intentions. But where we end up with that is levels of consumption that are unsustainable, levels of debt that are unsustainable. And the whole thing at some point hits the wall. And that’s kind of what's happening now.

To get back on track ... I know my links are biased because I'm googling "end of growth economy". However I'm very interested in arguments and links to the contrary too.

Are there any? And is there anything new in the financial system thinking besides more credit, more debt, more crashes ...

It's apparent that the whole system makes the banks and their investers a lot of money, so is it likely we'll get any new ideas from that sector!

[CPCFTW]

http://transitionvoice.com/2011/08/how-to-talk-about-the-end-of-growth-interview-with-richard-heinberg/

To get back on track ... I know my links are biased because I'm googling "end of growth economy". However I'm very interested in arguments and links to the contrary too.

Are there any? And is there anything new in the financial system thinking besides more credit, more debt, more crashes ...

It's apparent that the whole system makes the banks and their investers a lot of money, so is it likely we'll get any new ideas from that sector!

Here's a hint: Consumer debt isn't the issue. People have been defaulting on loans for longer than you or I have been alive.

Now come back when you educate yourself on the difference between government debt and consumer debt.

Edited September 8, 2011 by CPCFTW

[jacee]

Here's a hint: Consumer debt isn't the issue. People have been defaulting on loans for longer than you or I have been alive.

Now come back when you educate yourself on the difference between government debt and consumer debt.

Government debt balloons and then there are austerity binges, and those cycles are created to make a lot of money for a few peoplr by siphoning money out of the middle class.

It isn't really a cycle but a spiral ... a death spiral for all but a few uber-rich.