The End Of Immigration

[Oleg Bach]

A recent international survey revealed that the population of most nations has become for the greater part, anti-immigration. Using anology, immigration is much like a person that has a sink full of dirty dishes and instead of rolling up your sleves and doing the dishes, you just leave the house and move to one with clean dishes.

As we see with the total disrespect shown a host nation by the now adult chidlren of immigrants to the U.K., the end results was not what was expected by those who lean to the loving left and believed they were creating a more fair and boarderless world.

Walls are a neccesity when it comes to national families. Those that leave their nations of origin for economic reasons are in effect traitorous rats to their own homeland. As I mentioned - all the nations that are abaondoned by their own native will continue to deterriorate. Every nation is a household of sorts - If you imagine modern immigration on a planetary level - It appears to be rat like - rats running from one shit hole to feed in another more prosperous and orderly hole - eventually lower the quality of life for everyone.

The cold reality is - you can not in this small world run away from your problems. The world at large must understand that abandonment of an abode to run to another is no longer the solution. Immigration has now become much like a spouse that deserts a spouse for what they percieve is a richer and more attractive spouse.

To put it simply no nation at this point in time wants what have become national traitors - who take the easy way out and run, abandoning their own national family - Whether is is political corruption - persecution or simple economics - It is high time that people face reality and stand and fight for what is their homeland..clean the place up and make it livable for the sake of the next generation...international escapism is no longer feasable - host nations world wide have taken all the immigrants they can handle- It has come to an end.

[Oleg Bach]

Would like to mention -that economic growth has physical limitations and some things when full grown can not be force to grow more to sustain artifical wealth - the original point of immigration was to bring more wealth to the host nation - once it has stopped doing that it is over. Continued expansionism of our now artifical fiscal system -- is simply out there in la la land. Nations have to realize that it is not always about prosperity...The west for instance is so damned prosperous that it is now killing them - most of the population is now over weight and unhealthy - this prosperity has turned into a type of fat poverty. I have lived on next to nothing for the last few years and I survived...If I can do it - others can do it.. Time to do with less material wealth and focus on cultural and spiritual wealth.

Being the cannary in the western gold mine - I am finally starting to soffocate...It is from the stress of having to bare the idea that money is god - it is not...and money will always betray you in the end- For a welfare reciepent like myself - the social policy is to try to re-addict those like myself to money...I simply lost faith in the stuff - and maybe that is a good thing.

[Michael Hardner]

international escapism is no longer feasable - host nations world wide have taken all the immigrants they can handle- It has come to an end.

Canada has an economist for a PM and continues to have one of the highest immigration rates in the world - do you think it's because immigration is bad for economics ? As long as social cohesion in our society continues to hold, we will continue to import people and to benefit from it.

[Oleg Bach]

Canada has an economist for a PM and continues to have one of the highest immigration rates in the world - do you think it's because immigration is bad for economics ? As long as social cohesion in our society continues to hold, we will continue to import people and to benefit from it.

What makes you think that social cohesion will continue to hold? Apparently the U.K. were far ahead of us in the social cohesion buisness and now the glue is letting go...what makes you think that we have better control over this issue than the Brits?

[Oleg Bach]

Michael - I understand that you are a kind and liberal man - but do you really believe that the flow of immigration into Canada if left at it's current level for ever will not harm the nation eventually? An end has to come to everything...What will this nation be like by the time we have say 200 million new arrivals - will the place be in one piece? You have to look into the future my friend _ I am not against immigrants as individuals....but ... once a saturation point is achieved, our government will have a nation that will not be a nation and thus hard to manage...It's like house guests that do chores and help out with the rent...5 in a household is manageable 50 is not.

[Michael Hardner]

What makes you think that social cohesion will continue to hold?

I am usually quite cautious about predicting the future, so I doubt that I ever said that.

Apparently the U.K. were far ahead of us in the social cohesion buisness and now the glue is letting go...what makes you think that we have better control over this issue than the Brits?

When exactly was the UK ahead of us ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Race_riots_in_the_United_Kingdom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots#1990s_-_2000

Notice that Canada's riots tend to happen around Stanley Cup contests and rock concerts.

I have lived under socialism, and to my mind the traditional rigidity of their economies and labour markets does not lend itself well to allowing for new immigrants to find a place.

[Michael Hardner]

The future is only a few seconds away, though.

I am starting to think that we may need to take a breath for a generation or so and allow our communities to build organically. A large recession would not be helpful for class relations.

[Oleg Bach]

The future is only a few seconds away, though.

I am starting to think that we may need to take a breath for a generation or so and allow our communities to build organically. A large recession would not be helpful for class relations.

I love this nation - and believe that we have a wonderful mix of humanity...but as we look around...we can not ignore a threat to the very fabric that holds this nation together. We are not responsible for every failed or corrupt state in the world - as I hand out change to beggars - eventually I say no - I don't like doing it but I must...for my own sake. As for recessions - OUR immigrant are actually very protective of their new home - I doubt that the father or mother immigrant would tolerate their kid parting in hooliganism..Those intelligent immigrants would realise that destructive behavour regarding class relations as you put it - defeats the whole purpose of immigration to begin with...

As for the UK....the old elite suffered from over sight and did not understand that assumulation was important - we put more effort into conditioning our immigrant children - for the most part I am proud of them...

[Oleg Bach]

In a global world - the building and repair of all nations is a must. In that respect it would be better to have better relations with have not nations. But because our buisness elite who effect government are only interested in profit for profit's sake - that will not happen...If you want answers always follow the buck..Every true rich man does not gage his self worth on the numbers contained in his account but how many servants they indirectly have....If immigrants are servants - some have to many...now time for my morning bath - The floor is yours.

[Michael Hardner]

I love this nation - and believe that we have a wonderful mix of humanity...but as we look around...we can not ignore a threat to the very fabric that holds this nation together.

There are certain perceived "threats" which are so dependent on the public spirit of the day that they negate the ability to measure their importance.

For example: the teenager as metaphor for our decaying society and doomed future - this one has been with us for more than 50 years. How much truth is there to it or was there to it ?

I'm not saying there is no truth, but that it's all in perception. There are things we CAN measure, and there is common sense to be applied but we haven't even been able to get to the threshold of that discussion. Instead, we have people throwing out anecdotes and anomalies that fog the discussion.

We are not responsible for every failed or corrupt state in the world - as I hand out change to beggars - eventually I say no - I don't like doing it but I must...for my own sake. As for recessions - OUR immigrant are actually very protective of their new home - I doubt that the father or mother immigrant would tolerate their kid parting in hooliganism..Those intelligent immigrants would realise that destructive behavour regarding class relations as you put it - defeats the whole purpose of immigration to begin with...

Immigration is not practiced in Canada as a tool for charity, to my mind.

As for the UK....the old elite suffered from over sight and did not understand that assumulation was important - we put more effort into conditioning our immigrant children - for the most part I am proud of them...

America's economic model is much close to that of their homelands, I suspect: basically, find yourself something to do and get to it !

[scribblet]

Too much immigration is not a bad thing but should be tied to jobs and Canada's needs. In bad times and unemployment why should we continue to bring in people who won't be able to find jobs. Canada cannot take in everyone, nor can the U.K. and what is happening in the U.K. now speaks to the issue of a too lax immigration policy.

[Oleg Bach]

There are certain perceived "threats" which are so dependent on the public spirit of the day that they negate the ability to measure their importance.

For example: the teenager as metaphor for our decaying society and doomed future - this one has been with us for more than 50 years. How much truth is there to it or was there to it ?

I'm not saying there is no truth, but that it's all in perception. There are things we CAN measure, and there is common sense to be applied but we haven't even been able to get to the threshold of that discussion. Instead, we have people throwing out anecdotes and anomalies that fog the discussion.

Immigration is not practiced in Canada as a tool for charity, to my mind.

America's economic model is much close to that of their homelands, I suspect: basically, find yourself something to do and get to it !

There you go Micheal, more science as usual. You want to constantly measure and weight things and come up with numbers that represent facts..that's fine. There is a thing called abstract thought that is more instinctive and sometimes paints a more accurate picture of the future than scientific analysis.

If you believe that our policy is not a tool of charity I believe you are wrong - Our liberal democracy is full of do-gooder and warm and fuzzy hearted people..If you know of an immigrant and he is a wonderful guy and a friend, that does not mean that all immigrants are beautiful and bringing in more without restriction will add more beauty to the Canadian landscape. Personally I like the idea of a sparcely populated nation. In time that will be gone and even you will wish for the good old days when we had room to be free.

Why do you believe that anecdotal examples fog the discussion...all we have is our own and collective esperience. Anecdotal examples are just a valid as your measurable scientific anecdotes. You also like to mention that the PM is an economist...so what - what have formally trained economists accomplished thus far if we use the American ones as an example - I do grant you this in the fact that Harper has a conservative and truley Canadian apporach to economy - Canadian style eonomists are probably the most stern and realistic.

My idea was not domestic in scope. It was a general different view of the movement of human beings on the planet earth in general. A person can be on one side of the planet and withing 12 hours be on the other side - this phenomena is new when it comes to human migration and immigration...I just don't believe that we fully understand such rapid mass movement of humanity on this scale.

[bjre]

eventually lower the quality of life for everyone.

It is Canada's problem, rather than the problem generated by the immigrants.

It is the politicians who made laws that makes tons of social problems that they can not solve themselves.

It is the problems that made the politicians want more money because they waste it in unnecessary social services such as CAS and many others. Those services generate more problems than they solved. Because of the too many services, they can not afford the money even when they raise the tax again and again from GST, PST, HST to house tax and others. They want borrow money from private banks, and waste 10% of tax dollars each year to pay the interest rate to the private banks. They made laws that private bank can lend money without actually have money themselves. So they can not afford the huge money waste every year and they still want to waste, otherwise they will no longer be at the position as a politician. So they expect more people come to pay tax, that is the reason they want immigrants. But when immigrants come, the politicians have no intention to give them professional jobs, like a doctor with 20 years experience have to sell pork at a shop under Roblaws, so that can not provide the tax it was expected, and he may need service offer more benefit for his children.

It is clear, the politicians made the all mess, not the immigrants.

With such kind of politicians, the life quality will inevitability become lower with or without immigrants.

Edited August 9, 2011 by bjre

[Michael Hardner]

There you go Micheal, more science as usual. You want to constantly measure and weight things and come up with numbers that represent facts..that's fine. There is a thing called abstract thought that is more instinctive and sometimes paints a more accurate picture of the future than scientific analysis.

Abstract thought ? No. It's folklore... i.e. "things are much worse now than EVER !".

Why do you believe that anecdotal examples fog the discussion...all we have is our own and collective esperience.

There's a time for personal stories and a time for perspective.

We hear personal stories used to justify attitudes that are Chauvinistic. It's not objective.

Anecdotal examples are just a valid as your measurable scientific anecdotes.

For some things but not all things. Maybe to illustrate examples that we know are true. Policy, strategy, economics are different - you need to know the whole elephant.

My idea was not domestic in scope. It was a general different view of the movement of human beings on the planet earth in general. A person can be on one side of the planet and withing 12 hours be on the other side - this phenomena is new when it comes to human migration and immigration...I just don't believe that we fully understand such rapid mass movement of humanity on this scale.

We don't have rapid mass movement of humanity though - it would solve a lot of problems if we did. We have mass movement of capital but the people have to stay behind when the money they generated flies over the horizon. It's not natural.

[Oleg Bach]

In cold seriousness - lets be honest. Humanity has become like an infestation - a cancer ....an out of control spreading disease - that threatens to bring life as we know it to a gradual end.

Myself I am loyal to the human race because they are family - even though they are the most destructive natuarl force on earth - actually with the bigger human brain - we are capable of creating the un-natural - the artifical.

The real reason I bring up the idea that all immigration should be contained is in the concept of compartmentalization of humanity - Nations are compartments - nations are manageable. As our boarders become more weakend by globalist thinking - humanity eventually will become a boarderless tribe - and everyone will be everwhere - There will be no national families - who's affairs are manageable.

In plain language - in time more more mayhem and chaos will appear - here is the cold hard truth with the management of what now has become a disease - humaity.

Once as some utopian lefties believe "we are all one" , somehow the world will become manageable and all barriers such as boarders once gone will leave a heavenly place were there will be peace and prosperity for all...I* don't believe this is possible.

If humaity is a disease - then it can be treated if kept contained in pockets - or familiar nations - as with a cancer if the areas that need to be healed are not clear and concentrated the disease will become un-magagable - thus untreatable.

Nations or (families) are units...the world devided into units allows for assistance in healing and in self healing and management...If the planet becomes one huge swarming of human infestation - It will NOT be salvageable - It will be to complex for humanity to deal with --------we are all part of this disease - but it is our disease and we must survive even if we are a cancer - we must be contained for our own sake - In other worlds humaity or evil has a right to life - but now if you do not recogize the reality that we are evil...

So this might be a bit of sympathy for the devil - remember _ the all mighty created both good and bad...and both must be managaged - Humanity..does not stay alive on it's own - it is an artifical species at present that needs to be looked at for what it is - germs.

[Oleg Bach]

Over and over again - we talk about needed "growth" - to ensure prosperity...and needed masses of people to work to ensure this growth...Has anyone ever considered the fact that growth is natural - and the forcing of growth when some entity if fully grown is UN-natural?

[Oleg Bach]

On a domestic tone - Is Canada fully grown - and fine the way it is - or do we need to fill up our land mass till we are like the states that is overgrown? In my simple mind we do not need 360 million people in Canada - the very spirit of our nation is base in the fact that we are not crowded - so why do we insist on making the place crowded which will make it no longer CANADA?

[Michael Hardner]

Once as some utopian lefties believe "we are all one" , somehow the world will become manageable and all barriers such as boarders once gone will leave a heavenly place were there will be peace and prosperity for all...I* don't believe this is possible.

You disappoint me. By know, I had hoped you would realize that this is in fact the dreams of corporatists and righties, and they're doing a great job of implementing it.

[Oleg Bach]

You disappoint me. By know, I had hoped you would realize that this is in fact the dreams of corporatists and righties, and they're doing a great job of implementing it.

Would have to give you an appointment before I could dis-appoint you. I use the term "leftie" out of convenience. I do realize that corporatists are just as vulgar when it comes to extremism and personal power. As I mentioned before, I did have contact with these types of lefty righty play all sides of the fence people. These people are NOT political..they are internaional in scope...and totally disloyal as say Conrad Black was to their nation of origin and success.

Not so long ago - my daughter got a message from an Canadian economist who has spent many years in the Congo..The daughter who works for "Free The Children", in the capacity of a doner relations officer...got a plea for funding ...He is a personal friend of hers and thought that she might help through her NGO...He needed money to re-intigrate adult former child soldiers back into mainstream society...Free The Children declined...so I got an idea...

I called up "Mr. Big" and wondered if he or any of his friends would be interested in helping this eonomist idealst in Africa - He was not interested in the least - but he did perk up regarding my contract...He said "But I have some friends who are interested in doing some mining in the area" - It seems that our business elite are as per usual looking to get something for nothing - Then I thought to myself - this elite is not interested in National interests...and some poor young guy in the Congo seeking a normal life could just F off and die.

So Michael - I have witnessed hard core Trotskite lawyers who have been disbarred by people like my corporate associate...the left matters only to fanatics - the so called right - or conservatism in true form is interested in conserving what we have - THEN there are the othes - who will support any political party that can guarentee them more power or more profits - The fact that our governmental jerks suck up to China is proof of the fact that the big dogs are in control and have no ethics. BUT of course they contribute to charities and sit on the board of all the nice hospitals.

[bud]

it's not sustainable to end immigration. we're not having enough children to take care of the retired and old. we need young skilled and semi-skilled people to continue to immigrate to canada.

canada's immigration policy is actually quite strict and it continues to become more and more difficult for non-skilled people to immigrate to canada. our immigration policy has been updated a few times in the past decade to reflect our economic needs. for example, at the moment, in the most popular immigration program, federal skilled program, people with experience in 29 occupations are able to apply. not only do you need to have at least 1 year experience in one of the occupations, but you also need at least a university degree and a high language level to be able to apply.

immigration is not the problem. you guys are chasing ghosts. the problem is the structure of the social system and the power of the multi-national companies who have gained much influence in our governments.

Edited August 10, 2011 by bud

[Thorn]

it's not sustainable to end immigration. we're not having enough children to take care of the retired and old. we need young skilled and semi-skilled people to continue to immigrate to canada.

Or to start.

canada's immigration policy is actually quite strict and it continues to become more and more difficult for non-skilled people to immigrate to canada.

I am given to understand that the economic fortunes of immigrants have deteriorated markedly, both in comparison to Canadian born citizens, and in comparison to immigrants who arrived in earlier years. To what do you attribute this given your statement above?

[bud]

Or to start.

I am given to understand that the economic fortunes of immigrants have deteriorated markedly, both in comparison to Canadian born citizens, and in comparison to immigrants who arrived in earlier years. To what do you attribute this given your statement above?

to be clear, i'm not saying it's right or wrong for the immigration regulations to become more strict. i'm also not saying we're receiving less immigrants due to the changing policies. i'm only sharing the trend and the direction immigration in canada is going towards and to perhaps counter the misconceptions, assumptions and accusations for those who seem to be anti-immigration.

to answer your question, i would need to see the information you're referring to.

Edited August 10, 2011 by bud

[dre]

Canada has an economist for a PM and continues to have one of the highest immigration rates in the world - do you think it's because immigration is bad for economics ? As long as social cohesion in our society continues to hold, we will continue to import people and to benefit from it.

Immigration in Canada has always been driven by economics, and business. Its also nothing new for immigrants to experience a backlash from Canadian born citizens, and our government has a history of acting on what is usually uninformed xenophia.

Immigrants are easy people to throw under the bus when times are tough.

[Oleg Bach]

Immigration in Canada has always been driven by economics, and business. Its also nothing new for immigrants to experience a backlash from Canadian born citizens, and our government has a history of acting on what is usually uninformed xenophia.

Immigrants are easy people to throw under the bus when times are tough.

We always take things personally which is normal. Thing always slide back into a discussion regarding the Canadian intake of immigration. I was talking more about the world wide effect of the trend to more open boarders - the more immigrants a nation has the more open the boarders become.

As you saw with my cold approach refereing to humanity in general as a blight on the planet, my thoughts were conducted around the idea that disease must be contained and managed. It just appears that once the fabric of a society becomes thinner that it tears more easily and the management becomes more complex and issue. The term uniformed xenophia is like the term uniformed homophobia...what's there to be informed about?

...we are less and less family orientated these days - and I compare nations to families - as the tradtional building block of society crumbles - nations tend to crumble. The family unit is easier managed than a huge communal estate...in order to manage a globalist society - you have to have stern secular dictatorship...no one fully understands what a world government would be like.

Back to being uninformed and xenophobia. Phobia means fear of irrational fear - those in favour of EVERYTHING - like to point a finger at those that might not like certain things and say --- "It is an irrational fear that is motivating your outlook and attitude..that if only we could inform the Xenophobe that he would no longer be in a state of fear...Well that is like someone saying - if you got to know the immigrant personally and were informed about their character - some how we will like them...

There are people I don't like and more information about them is not going to changed that. Even if that person is wonderful - you have to put feelings aside and kick them to the curb our out of the national door............

OKAY now I am going to get spiteful - regarding the first in line rule...If a person is born in a nation - If their family has contributed to that nation in the building of it -over a period of a few generations - that person should be first in line and have more rights to wealth that THEY earned than the person who shows up at the door at a late hour and demands the same as he that is established...sorry - you go to the back of the line...I just don't like the fact that I see forth generation Canadians driven to the lowere end of the Canadian social spectum while an immigrant professional - lords over them and holds these Canadians in contempt -------Muslim prayer in our public school system shows just that - contempt and loathing for the established Canadians - sorry again - You are going to have to earn your stripes - You are not going to march in here and take over.

[Thorn]

Immigration in Canada has always been driven by economics, and business. Its also nothing new for immigrants to experience a backlash from Canadian born citizens, and our government has a history of acting on what is usually uninformed xenophia.

Would you care to give us some examples of this history? Preferably recent history...