Here we go again - Quebec Independence

[maplesyrup]

QUOTE 

1981: Night of the Long Knives - A Myth?

Bakunin.......what is the version you grew up with? Why did Levesque not support the patriation of the constitution?

The reason I'm asking is there appears to be a lot of confusion surrounding what happened in 1981. 

I did not read all of it but i think its near to what i heard.

Nine province's come to an agreement while the Quebec delegation was gone to sleep. The next day when he arrived the constitution was written and with compensation from quebec erased. That's why he did not sign.

It seems that the version you believe, is not the same version that Peter Lougheed, who has/had a lot of goodwill towards Quebec shared in his correspondence.

Did it ever occur to you that you are being fed a lot of BS just as the other side is being fed a lot of BS?

There is a lot of goodwill on both sides - we need that to shine through dialogue.

[Bakunin]

QUOTE 

1981: Night of the Long Knives - A Myth?

Bakunin.......what is the version you grew up with? Why did Levesque not support the patriation of the constitution?

The reason I'm asking is there appears to be a lot of confusion surrounding what happened in 1981. 

I did not read all of it but i think its near to what i heard.

Nine province's come to an agreement while the Quebec delegation was gone to sleep. The next day when he arrived the constitution was written and with compensation from quebec erased. That's why he did not sign.

It seems that the version you believe, is not the same version that Peter Lougheed, who has/had a lot of goodwill towards Quebec shared in his correspondence.

Did it ever occur to you that you are being fed a lot of BS just as the other side is being fed a lot of BS?

There is a lot of goodwill on both sides - we need that to shine through dialogue.

from what i read, he talk about the fact that the quebec delegation was not there when the 8 province front collapsed and that nine province's came to an agreement.Is it that different than the version Peter Lougheed gave ?

I think that source are really important and that it can differ like you say from both side. I even already seen A report on CBC with the same video sequence but rewrited in french for Radio-Canada and it was the complete opposite. Night and day. Thats why i try to use many external source's or fact, not opinion.

Just like when eureka said that canada was a federation and it was clear. I just post some american and english canadian text saying the contrary. I also used Fact like the word confederation is used evrywhere in the canadian history even if its clear that we are a federation.

Did it ever occur to you that you are being fed a lot of BS just as the other side is being fed a lot of BS?

There is a lot of goodwill on both sides - we need that to shine through dialogue.

Exactly frustration and the fact that we don't understand each others is the thing that is blocking the dialogue politicaly and if we understand that, i think its a step forward to the best direction.

[seabee]

Just for your information, there is a very interesting book showing how different perspectives of events leads to different opinions. It is called "Si je me souviens bien/As I recall", authored by John Meisel, Guy Rocher, and Arthur Silver, published by the IRPP in 1999, simultaneously in French and in English. It looks at some 30 historical events in Canada. For each event, the first part is a bare-bone factual description of the event, in the most neutral terms possible, the second and third parts are about how one side of the linguistic divide saw it, described it and reacted to it, and then the other side. Canada does not have a history, it has at least two.

Two those who promote canadian unity, a simple question. In 1759, at the Plains of Abraham, did we win or did we lose?

[maplesyrup]

Seabee....thanks for an enlightening post

BTW who is we?

[Bakunin]

very interesting seabee, i think ill buy it. Have you read it ?

[Hawk]

Eureka.....I am really tired of Anglos whining about language laws in Quebec. Why haven't the anglo educational institutions taught their students to learn the language of the majority in Quebec?

What is all this nonsense about the problems of learning a second language? Educated people these days know three and more languages. Don't you think it is time to get over it? I think it is anglos inflexibility that is leading to separation.  Let's get some creative solutions here, not the same old, same old tired arguments from the past 

Oh really? inflexible? You are comparing Anglophones who are everyday joes to the special status, next-to-completely-sovereign Francophones and declaring US the inflexible ones?

Interesting =p

As for the uneducated post regarding French being the first in Canada, wrong. Also the explanation as to how the French were taken over economically... Read up on the French and Indian War, Anglophones beat the French and took over Canada. Sorry but that is the true history as the rest of the world sees it =)

Here is a link: http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/articl...dindianwar3.htm

[maplesyrup]

Jeez.....no wonder some Quebecois want to separate!

Haven't you ever heard of the expression:

"You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar?"

Les Quebecois needed to be listened to, and accommodated as much as possible. Quite frankly the rest of Canada needs to get on with learning French. And the sooner the better.

If they have not already done it, all federal civil servants, from cosat to coast, need to be bilingual by a certain date or be let go.

Then we need to work on bilingualing our provinces. Which province to you think will be next to become official bilingual? Do you know which province (s) are officially bilingual right now? We have a long way to go here.

I think maybe Manitoba, and possibly Ontario. We need some healthy provincial governments to show some leadership on this issue. Maybe it could be a grass roots project starting with our municipal governments.

What Canada really needs is to get ahold of that Israeli fence contractor, and have them erect a similiar type barrier between Canada and the United States. The US is suffocating Canada.

(785)

[seabee]

very interesting seabee, i think ill buy it. Have you read it ?

Yes, from cover to cover. It is very interesting reading, well written by renowned scholars, but in easily readable language. The price is $34.95.

[seabee]

Your lucky only you can vote, I would vote you out in a second. Always whining, always getting your way, always shrieking for equality and then using public sympathy/shame to get special status. Its sad, it really is sad. IMHO the English should have simply assimilated the French way back when we took over Canada, would have saved so much trouble.

Canada Outside Québec can certainly eventually vote Québec out of the Dominion. All it has to do is form a provincial political party which will include such an idea in its platform, get it elected in its own province, convince people in other provinces to do the same, have a federal party that could approve the idea and defend it in the commons (the Conservatives, who got not one elected MP in Québec could fit the bill), hold referendums in each and all provinces (with the possible exception of Québec), win these referendums in all provinces, convince the Commons tha the Constitution should be changed, open negociations with Québec (the Constitution cannot be changed on such important matters without the unanimous consent of all provinces), and have a federation-wide referendum to ratify the results of these negociations. This is a process similar to what has been done in Québec. COQ should then be able to kick Québec out within two to three generations, four top. But then, what about the anglophone minority in Québec? Will you abandon them, in the same way as Québec nationalist are accused of doing to francophones outside Québec?

Always whining, always getting your way, always shrieking for equality and then using public sympathy/shame to get special status.

First, the choice of terms is deliberately condescending and infantilizing, as is often the case with people who plan hate crimes. Then, it is taken for granted that there is nothing to complain about, which, of course, is false. If Québec were always getting its way, there would be no independantist party in Québec. Asking (“shrieking”) for equality? what nerve; “ bad white nigger, bad, bad. You’re inferior, accept it”. Is that the point being made? Using public sympathy/shame is part of what any political party, at whatever level, uses to get elected; it is not at all a Québec only thing. Québec is drastically different from COQ by its history, its culture, its language, its cinema, its music, its television, its education system, its health-care system, its retirement plan, etc.... It wants these differences to be legally recognized and respected. COQ’s refusal to legally recognize these differences is interpreted as having a hidden agenda to abolish these differences by means of a cultural genocide, such as assimilation, or possibly worse. After all, English presence in Canada started with violent conquests, followed by attempted assimilation. However, imposed assimilation seldom works, and often turns against the assimilator, as shown in Canada by the First Nation, the Acadians, the Métis and the Québécois. The conquered, of course, have never been and are still not able to trust English-Canada. You never get a second chance to make a good first impression. You blew it!

[maplesyrup]

As I recall, Si je me souviens bien

[seabee]

As for the uneducated post regarding French being the first in Canada, wrong.

Wrong indeed. The First Nations had been here for millenia.The latest finds show Native presence around Lac Mégantic some 12,000 years ago, shortly after the glaciers started receding. However, it is unquestionable that the French started permanently settling in America at the beginning of the 17th century, first in the French colony of Acadia in 1604, and later in the French colony of Canada in 1608 (not 1603 as is claimed in the link offered below. These two colonies, later joined by Louisiana, formed what was called Nouvelle-France. The descendant of the French settlers in Canada were called Canadien or Canadians by both the French and the English, and of course by the Canadien themselves. By the time of the 1756-1760 Conquest, the Canadiens, descendant of the French settlers, had been in Canada for about a century and a half. The present Dominion of Canada is only 137 years old. If the French and the Canadian were not there at the time of the Conquest, who or what was conquered?

You should read up Marcel Trudel's "Histoire de la Nouvelle-France", published by Fides, in four (or more) volumes from 1963 to 1983. And the fouth book only reaches until 1663. The second book received Canada's Governor General's award in 1967.

Read up on the French and Indian War, Anglophones beat the French and took over Canada. Sorry but that is the true history as the rest of the world sees it =

Here is a link: http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/articl...dindianwar3.htm

Nobody denies the Conquest. In fact, the Conquest is the root of present problems. It was a violent, brutal event that led to the death of about 1/6 of the canadien population and dispossessed the survivours forcing them to find refuge outside the occupied, ethnically cleansed towns and turn to survival agriculture. It led to two centuries of poverty and dispossession, in conditions bordering on slavery. As for the link, after just a quick glance, one can spot a few factual errors, and a closer search confirms there serious omissions.

[Hawk]

Jeez.....no wonder some Quebecois want to separate!

Haven't you ever heard of the expression:

"You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar?"

Les Quebecois needed to be listened to, and accommodated as much as possible. Quite frankly the rest of Canada needs to get on with learning French. And the sooner the better.

Oh really? So... is Quebec going to be forced to teach English in their public schools like we are being forced to teach French? =)

Also Quebec has been listened to a whole lot more than any other province in Canada, why do you think they have special status and a government that next to @$$ kisses them? xD

Wrong indeed. The First Nations had been here for millenia.The latest finds show Native presence around Lac Mégantic some 12,000 years ago, shortly after the glaciers started receding. However, it is unquestionable that the French started permanently settling in America at the beginning of the 17th century, first in the French colony of Acadia in 1604, and later in the French colony of Canada in 1608 (not 1603 as is claimed in the link offered below. These two colonies, later joined by Louisiana, formed what was called Nouvelle-France. The descendant of the French settlers in Canada were called Canadien or Canadians by both the French and the English, and of course by the Canadien themselves. By the time of the 1756-1760 Conquest, the Canadiens, descendant of the French settlers, had been in Canada for about a century and a half. The present Dominion of Canada is only 137 years old. If the French and the Canadian were not there at the time of the Conquest, who or what was conquered?

You should read up Marcel Trudel's "Histoire de la Nouvelle-France", published by Fides, in four (or more) volumes from 1963 to 1983. And the fouth book only reaches until 1663. The second book received Canada's Governor General's award in 1967.

Yes well thank you for the history lesson, I knew that however it will clarify some of the black spots for other readers I am sure xD

Nobody denies the Conquest. In fact, the Conquest is the root of present problems. It was a violent, brutal event that led to the death of about 1/6 of the canadien population and dispossessed the survivours forcing them to find refuge outside the occupied, ethnically cleansed towns and turn to survival agriculture. It led to two centuries of poverty and dispossession, in conditions bordering on slavery. As for the link, after just a quick glance, one can spot a few factual errors, and a closer search confirms there serious omissions.

God forbid a war to be a violent brutal event. War time should be spent sitting around camp fires with the enemy singing 'kumbaya' (sp?)

As for 'poverty' ... Considering that back then EVERYONE was in poverty except important businessmen I find it hard to blame the poverty of a nation-that-didn't-even-technically-exist-yet on a war =p

Britain vs France, Britain won. Simple as that, and then we continued in a VERY nice fashion considering that the English and French were next to mortal enemies. We didn't ethnically cleanse them, like the Nazi's did with the Jews, we accepted them and at present they hold more rights than we, the conquerers, do.

First, the choice of terms is deliberately condescending and infantilizing, as is often the case with people who plan hate crimes. Then, it is taken for granted that there is nothing to complain about, which, of course, is false. If Québec were always getting its way, there would be no independantist party in Québec. Asking (“shrieking”) for equality? what nerve; “ bad white nigger, bad, bad. You’re inferior, accept it”. Is that the point being made? Using public sympathy/shame is part of what any political party, at whatever level, uses to get elected; it is not at all a Québec only thing. Québec is drastically different from COQ by its history, its culture, its language, its cinema, its music, its television, its education system, its health-care system, its retirement plan, etc.... It wants these differences to be legally recognized and respected. COQ’s refusal to legally recognize these differences is interpreted as having a hidden agenda to abolish these differences by means of a cultural genocide, such as assimilation, or possibly worse. After all, English presence in Canada started with violent conquests, followed by attempted assimilation. However, imposed assimilation seldom works, and often turns against the assimilator, as shown in Canada by the First Nation, the Acadians, the Métis and the Québécois. The conquered, of course, have never been and are still not able to trust English-Canada. You never get a second chance to make a good first impression. You blew it!

How nice of you, yes I was just on my way out the door to perform my 'hate crimes' when I was stopped by this post. Interesting choice of words indeed.

I might as well outline why I dont agree with this Anglophone self-righteous self-induced shame and hatred of all that is English.

Anglophones have had it drilled into them all through school the atrocities of the English, of all the horrors the English-speaking white man has done to other cultures and to other people. They are so intense with this anti-English teaching that the individuals end up being ashamed of their past and of their heritage, they are ashamed at what they did to that native kid in the corner's ancestors, or to those poor Francophones, etc, etc =p

We live in an age where minorities make the rules, where minorities break the rules, and where minorities rule the majority. How is this possible? Because to put it frankly the majority lets them and in some cases helps them.

We, the white Anglophone, are the most discriminated against race on earth, we are despised by our enemies, we are despised by our friends, and we are despised by each other. This is morally wrong, but anyone who says such is called a 'Fascist' or 'Bigot'. Why am I a 'fascist' or a 'bigot' because I want equality? Why am I the bad guy when I want to be proud of my heritage? Of my English roots? Of who the damnable hell I AM? Why is it that unless I am grovelling and giving self-righteous speeches against the history of the evil white man that I am a 'discriminator'?

I will tell you why, its because in this society we have allowed the new generations to be taught the shames of our past but few of the glories, they have been taught the greatness of others and the inferiority of themselves, they have been taught that only other people count and not themselves, they have been cultivated into faithful little socialists. I, however, am blessed to have been bounced around schools and so it didn't impact me quite as hard... but I have friends who have felt the bite of socialism and political correctness. I have had friends get beaten nearly to death by a minority on school property only to have the school expel my friends and the minority to get off free because they were native american, I have had other friends expelled because they tried to be proud of their English roots, I have had friends publically humilitated by teachers because they refused to admit the inferiority of the evil white man in society.

Is this an enlightened civilized society? I seriously hope not, or I am outta here.

[maplesyrup]

What does =p mean?

[Bakunin]

Oh really? So... is Quebec going to be forced to teach English in their public schools like we are being forced to teach French? =)

We are teaching English in school and its very helpfull. from 3rd primary to cegep and university if we get there.

I also took the english "immersion program" where we learn english for half of a scholars years.

Also Quebec has been listened to a whole lot more than any other province in Canada, why do you think they have special status and a government that next to @$$ kisses them? xD

I don't understand. We don't have special status. we get ruled by the federal government like evry other province and we dont want special status too... we want less power from the federal, thats it. If your talking about why we are called a "distinct society" well that mean nothing, its just word its not more right. Its just mean we are distintc from the canadian society, and who didn't know that ?

[Guest eureka]

Seabee, you mix intelligent comment with arrant nonsense. It would seem that you have been subjected to the same mythical history as Bakunin.

The French were not the first in Canada since Canada did not exist at the time of the first French explorers and there very few settlers at that time: only those who were necessary to service the explorers and troops. There was only North America where the British were much earlier than the French and had several permanent settlements before the French evn thought of the possibilities.

The French arrived at different locations and claimed virtually the lot. Inevitability that led to clashes and war. War that the British won. There were only 60,000 French in what had come to be known as Canada by the time of the Conquest and many more British than that throughout the area claimed by France as well as the British colonies to the South.

Your ideas of the aftermath of "The Conquest" are laughable in their naivete. Where did you read that nonsense? The Quebec Act came only a few years after and it was the most generous treatment of a conquered people (if you want to call a handfull of French settlers a people? in the history of human relations. Read some of it and find what rights the French were allowed to keep that there was no precedent for in recorded history.

That the Frenc settlers stayed only on the farms and were ethnically cleansed would be news to any historian who cared for truth. The French settlers quickly mixed with and assimilated a good number of the British who stayed on in Quebec City and the couple of other settlements that then existed.

Canada could indeed expel Quebec and it could indeed decide to let Quebec go. The adjustments would take a long time to make as you rightly point pot. It should be remembered though that the weakest party to a negotiation comes to the table as a supplicant and will get only what the stronger is willing to concede.

What Canada would be willing to concede would not be very much. There would be border adjustments that Quebec says - at this time- it would not accept. It would have no choice. There would be no dual citizenship for Quebeckers. Can you imagine the difficulties that would cause if it were granted. There would be tens of thousands of public servants who would have to leave their jobs in Ottawa since we could not have foreigners running the Canadian Civil Service. There would be economic adjustments that would not be favourable to Quebec.

Quebec might refuse to accept responsibility for its share of the National debt - they could legally do this but can you imagine the retaliatory measures that Canada would take? Any supporter should shudder at the possibility. Overall, Canada might even benefit economically if Quebec should leave. Just imagine, for example, it would no longer pay the salaries of politicians who are now being payed by Canada to promote the destruction of Canada - or their pensions.

However, what Quebec has not understood is that Canadians across and not just in Quebec, do not think of their country in purely economic terms. There is a visceral hatred of Quebec separatist in many Canadians who will not have their country destroyed.

Possibly Newfoundlanders might be happy to see Quebec go for economic reasons. They would then be able to get the more than $800 million that Quebec now gets for Churchill Falls power instead of the $10 million that Quebec pays for it. That particular blackmail and robbery by Quebec's government would come to an end and be a bonanza to Newfoundland which would not be a have not province but for Quebec.

[seabee]

So... is Quebec going to be forced to teach English in their public schools like we are being forced to teach French? =)

English is a compulsory subject in all french-speaking public school in Québec, and has been for decades.

[Guest eureka]

Bakunin!

Why do ypu persist woth the claim of a centralizing federal government? I would have thought I had given you enough information to dispel that nonsense.

Canada is, as I wrote, the most decentralized nation in thw world. If you still believe the sovereignist lies and propaganda in spite of the evidence, the you are lost.

[Bakunin]

Bakunin!

Why do ypu persist woth the claim of a centralizing federal government? I would have thought I had given you enough information to dispel that nonsense.

Canada is, as I wrote, the most decentralized nation in thw world. If you still believe the sovereignist lies and propaganda in spite of the evidence, the you are lost.

I didn't see any information just some home made opinion.

Canada is less centralized than many country in the world, i would not say all but many. But their are big difference between the situation in canada and in many country. The thing is that we find its too much centralized since trudeau came. Its too much centralized for nothing we could say.

The province have to healthcare, education, infrastructure, economy, culture and social policies etc...

they taxes us for ~50% in proportion.

the federal government has what to care ? defense, the army, diplomacy and immigration thats about it ? they taxes us for ~ 50% in proportion.

What happen ? they get lots of money to spare in stupid social program wich they almost always fail to make working. gun control ? sponsorship program ? a future childcare program maybe ?. free healtcare is a good sample of the total federal failure in social programs. They make it free, but they get money problem, what do they do ? they stop financing it. thei force the province not to privatize it but the province can't support the money it cost.... They want to make a childcare program, It won't work because they think they can make on for 6 billion while quebec has one that doesn't respond to the demmand and it cost 1,7 billion. What will they do ? stop financing it but force the province to make them working.

If they would transfer the money in taxes % they used to spend on healthcare to the province maybe it could work. Maybe if they would stop taxing so high and just lower their taxes rate, maybe Canada would run better. But no they still use their money surplus to jump over the provincial government to deal with the city directly, Or to make senseless social program while they don't have the expertise. Worst They only have 1 thing they are supposed to work on, "the army", they don't know how to run it. Our army is the size of the jamïcan army with old obsolete english ship and helicopters post vietnam style. The federal government is the biggest canadian failure ever.

Thats what i mean when i say its too much centralize for what its need.

[takeanumber]

If Quebec seperates, there is an excellent chance that they will go down in flames, because they've been dependant on the Rest of Canada to subsidize their over-generous social safety net. (EI that operates under the lotto 6-42 rule, for instance).

Don't expect the rest of Canada to clean it up.

We'll have long moved on.

We'll be good neighbors, but I think most Canadians will be relieved that the marriage is over once it's over.

[Bakunin]

If Quebec seperates, there is an excellent chance that they will go down in flames, because they've been dependant on the Rest of Canada to subsidize their over-generous social safety net. (EI that operates under the lotto 6-42 rule, for instance).

Don't expect the rest of Canada to clean it up.

We'll have long moved on.

We'll be good neighbors, but I think most Canadians will be relieved that the marriage is over once it's over.

Ok takeanumber ill tell them !

And i hope for canada that the french will separate so the canada can benefit from it economically and maybe get richer than the american...

[Guest eureka]

The federal government uses its taxes for the benefit of the whole population. If you had your way and taxing powers were transferred to Quebec there would not be the taxation base to support Quebec in the style to which it has become accustomed. Transfers to the provinces are made to give you standards. Would you really like tax points to be transferred as was done when the provinces wanted it for healthcare instead of a money transfer?

In that instance, Parizeau took money and a transfer and did not apply the tax points to healthcare but put it into general revenues. That is one part of the shortchanging of healthcare in Quebec that is not talked about.

The whole point of a federal government is to make sure that moneys are used for thr general population and not to feed the egos of regional politicians.

Then, Canada is one of the lowest taxed among developed countries not, as so many are screaming, highly taxed.

What there is in Canada is a jurisdictional imbalance not a fiscal imbalance. It is time the federal government was empowered by the people to take back some powers from the provinces. The unthinking ideology in certain parts of the country as well as the ethnically motivated desires of Quebec would destroy this country if satisfied.

Canada is too decentralized to be properly governed. The talk of centralization is too foolish and too ignorant in its genesis to be entertained. All major powers lie with the provinces. The provinces also have the Constitutional authority to tax according to their needs to exercise those powers. All the talk of wanting more money from the federal government is so much hot air. The reason for wanting bigger transfers is that provincial politicians would rather blame the feds for taxes than answer to their electorates for higher provincial taxes.

[takeanumber]

Sorry.

Many (most?) Canadians in the ROC prefer a strong central government.

These nitpicky issues about centralization and the evil federal government in Ottawa doesn't stick in the ROC.

Why?

Because Ottawa is looke as the national capital by people in the RoC.

It's not the centre of all evil, as Quebeckers would have you believe.

No, most Canadians are proud of their country. They don't demonize it.

I think that's the central difference here.

But that's fine. You just keep on telling yourself that the 2-3 billion a year that's wasted by the Federal Government comes entirely from Quebec, and that, you know, once you're rid of Ottawa, you'll be able to support your own armed forces, embassies, and the miscellany of federal agencies, all on your own, with that non-existant 2-3 billion.

(Most of which came from the RoC, which was so enraging, because ppl in Edmonton were discriminated against in that fund because it was a pot that was just for Quebec, which I heard most BQ's in the house demanding, for such things as the Montreal Grand Prix.)

Moreover, I'm sure you're going to miss the extra billions which are extorted from Ontario and Alberta every year to subsidize the Quebec Nanny State. (Because nobody is every responsible for anything, even their own fate, in Quebec). Again, for proof, look the constant moaning from rural quebec about EI and it not being fair that they pay 25 cents into the plan for every dollar they get out. Why. That's just plain unjust! They should be getting 3 dollars for every 25 cents dammit!

So, add 1 billion in savings, minus 5 billion in transfers, minus 10 billion or so in economies of scale from being in Canada. Plus, Quebec will be taking some of that sexy federal debt.

And what does Quebec got?

A huge deficit and no way to pay for it.

Don't let the screen door bump you on the way out.

[Bakunin]

Well thats your point of vue. But what i say is that your point of vue is not popular in quebec, to the point of leaving the country.

The whole point of a federal government is to make sure that moneys are used for thr general population and not to feed the egos of regional politicians.

Why, you really think that without the federal government the province would destroy the country. It the contrary, The federal government is a government that destabilize the provinces, Evrything they touch is a total mess. its scandal after scandal. The province are by far better placed to know how much money they must spend in healtcare since they are in charge of the hospital and evrything.

What there is in Canada is a jurisdictional imbalance not a fiscal imbalance. It is time the federal government was empowered by the people to take back some powers from the provinces. The unthinking ideology in certain parts of the country as well as the ethnically motivated desires of Quebec would destroy this country if satisfied.

i think the country will be destroyed if it continue not to satisfie the province.

Canada is too decentralized to be properly governed. The talk of centralization is too foolish and too ignorant in its genesis to be entertained.

I must agree with you on one thing. The country can't be propely governed the way it is right now. There are 2 choices, decentralize more, or centralize more.

The only problem is that with a more centralized country, it will fall sooner or later.

[Bakunin]

Sorry.

Many (most?) Canadians in the ROC prefer a strong central government.

These nitpicky issues about centralization and the evil federal government in Ottawa doesn't stick in the ROC.

Why?

Because Ottawa is looke as the national capital by people in the RoC.

It's not the centre of all evil, as Quebeckers would have you believe.

its not evil its just not suited to the reality like you say.

No, most Canadians are proud of their country. They don't demonize it.

Well thats true, many quebecers are not proud to be canadian.

But that's fine. You just keep on telling yourself that the 2-3 billion a year that's wasted by the Federal Government comes entirely from Quebec, and that, you know, once you're rid of Ottawa, you'll be able to support your own armed forces, embassies, and the miscellany of federal agencies, all on your own, with that non-existant 2-3 billion.

(Most of which came from the RoC, which was so enraging, because ppl in Edmonton were discriminated against in that fund because it was a pot that was just for Quebec, which I heard most BQ's in the house demanding, for such things as the Montreal Grand Prix.)

Moreover, I'm sure you're going to miss the extra billions which are extorted from Ontario and Alberta every year to subsidize the Quebec Nanny State. (Because nobody is every responsible for anything, even their own fate, in Quebec). Again, for proof, look the constant moaning from rural quebec about EI and it not being fair that they pay 25 cents into the plan for every dollar they get out. Why. That's just plain unjust! They should be getting 3 dollars for every 25 cents dammit!

So, add 1 billion in savings, minus 5 billion in transfers, minus 10 billion or so in economies of scale from being in Canada. Plus, Quebec will be taking some of that sexy federal debt.

And what does Quebec got?

A huge deficit and no way to pay for it.

Don't let the screen door bump you on the way out.

Why do you get frustrated then, why being so much frustrated when you have the chance to stop financing us like you say. Why not transfer taxes point to quebec in exchange of money transfer. After this, if we can't survive like you say it will be our mistake and we will asume it 100%

[Hawk]

We are teaching English in school and its very helpfull. from 3rd primary to cegep and university if we get there.

I also took the english "immersion program" where we learn english for half of a scholars years.

English is a compulsory subject in all french-speaking public school in Québec, and has been for decades.

And we have been teaching French, the difference is that now they are making learning French MANDATORY for us Anglophones and yet learning English is not a mandatory requirement in Quebec nor is there a plan for it to become mandatory =p

I don't understand. We don't have special status. we get ruled by the federal government like evry other province and we dont want special status too... we want less power from the federal, thats it.  If your talking about why we are called a "distinct society" well that mean nothing, its just word its not more right. Its just mean we are distintc from the canadian society, and who didn't know that ?

Here, read up on some of your own history since you seem to know so little of it:

http://www2.marianopolis.edu/quebechistory...ngs/special.htm