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Does Canada need a defence procurement agency?


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The Tory government wants to spend $240 Billion, for the next 20 years, for military equipment and there's not anyone or oraganization held responsible for the handing of it. Right now, ministers of Industry, Defence and Public Safety are responsible but some think there should be one agency to do this, since all three may disagree at times. Canada generates 10Bil. in yearly sales, 50% which is exported. http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Report%2Bcalls%2Bdefence%2Bprocurement%2Bagency/5044046/story.html

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Can't stand useless and endless undeclared wars - or the people that benefit from them - to spend billions on arms that are paid for by the tax payer seems to be a plan to keep some rich guys guarenteed rich for the next 20 years...THEN during that time you have to have a few wars or the scam will be up. Arms are important - why not just get more jets and a few nukes and call it a day?

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Oh and while I am still slightly pissed off here - Let me mention - I personally knew an arms dealer - they are all rats...drunkards and jerks that justify their respectablity when governments apporve of their rattiness. Why don't we forget about creating a "procurement" centre and just drag old Malroney out of retirement and let him go off and chat up his German buddies - but no brown envelopes this time - strickly legit and governmentally controlled.

When you have arms you must use them..That is the problem - Has no one considered that with more arms we are going to need more soldiers and MORE will die...just so those who deal in war supplies can live high on the hog? The whole thing is unsavory unless carefully controlled - The very nature of arms dealing is one where quality control of individuals and prices is uncontrolable and always covered in the slim of corruption.

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$240 billion... that's a lot of coin.

I think we should take half of it and send it over to the Defence R&D Board.

Why?

To develop phaser weapons, disrupters, etc. Yes, I mean ray guns, directed energy weapons. Handheld ones, rifles, etc.

That would be so cool! Conventional weapons are so boring and damned messy. We would gain instant savings on not having to clean up the messes that bullets and bombs cause.

Can you imagine? We would be the envy of the militariverse. And while we are at it, we could develop some sort of electromagnetic shielding technology to go along with it.

So very, very cool.

Hey, if some Japanese guy can make meat from poop, surely we can make rayguns.

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$240 billion... that's a lot of coin.

I think we should take half of it and send it over to the Defence R&D Board.

Why?

To develop phaser weapons, disrupters, etc. Yes, I mean ray guns, directed energy weapons. Handheld ones, rifles, etc.

That would be so cool! Conventional weapons are so boring and damned messy. We would gain instant savings on not having to clean up the messes that bullets and bombs cause.

Can you imagine? We would be the envy of the militariverse. And while we are at it, we could develop some sort of electromagnetic shielding technology to go along with it.

So very, very cool.

Hey, if some Japanese guy can make meat from poop, surely we can make rayguns.

You forgot the photon torpedoes...

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You forgot the photon torpedoes...

Yep, them too!

Photon torpedoes would be awesome, especially if they make that cool sound when they are fired off.

But even a small hand held directed energy weapon would be good enough for me. Something that instantly deconstructed atomic bonds to reduce the target to dust.

That would be a good start I think.

And for marketing purposes it should look like this.

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Yep, them too!

Photon torpedoes would be awesome, especially if they make that cool sound when they are fired off.

But even a small hand held directed energy weapon would be good enough for me. Something that instantly deconstructed atomic bonds to reduce the target to dust.

That would be a good start I think.

And for marketing purposes it should look like this.

Looks like a multi-purpose .38 snubnose....

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I would prefer we took a step backwards. Invest in the individual soldier instead of in massive war machines. In truth, I don't think we have given sufficient thought to the simple process of defense. Boots on the ground are everything, that is a fact. So why not just start where we should and see where it goes?

The individual soldier ought to be able to fly, drive, boat, and or quad his way across the nation while fighting. Mobility and operational integrity is the name of the game. Design and outfit from the soldier forward. Research into exoskeleton design and development may be found to be the ideal first step. Instead of laser weapons I would seek "needle" guns, light weight simple power source types of weapons. There are many ways to develop our military and of those ways are conventional and non-conventional methods. I think we need to do something different.

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Or write off my 35 thousand dollar tax debt that swelled from 5 grand with compound interest...and when complaining of their bureaucratic Draconianism - they back file for me on money that was never generated....oooooh they piss me off...especially when my operating costs were around ten grand that year....NEVER and I say NEVER hire an accountant that was a former Reveaue Canada employee - they will toss you to the dogs to please their friends. Billions of dollars for toys for the boys and a crippling taxing system that is not based on reality or logic.

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Operating costs for being bat shit crazy are only 10K a year??? Whodathunkit?

:D

Yah I was frugal and not into making big bucks _ I just wanted to live and have fun doing what I was doing - There was a resentment from the bored tax people who really did not like the fact that a grade nine drop out was hanging out with movie stars and eating the best catered food - not to mention with some long hours I had an over time rate of about 65 dollars...How dare this bum OLEG BACH enjoy his life while we hate ours".........Okay - so I was not big on paper work....worst part was they sent tax bulls to the agents I used and frightened them - They stopped booking me....For God's sake I had years when I made nothing - and other sparce years where I would max out at 22 thousand cash...Then the doinks started to garnishee 100% of my cheaques which they can do on termination...everyday a producer was done with you was considered a termination - till they hired you back a few days later - the feds have no idea how the arts work.

When I complianed that my cheques were reading - and no word of a lie $0.00...............wtf was that about - then they laughed in my face when I said I could not function on nothing or generate any money to give to them earning nothing - NO INCOME - NO INCOME TAX....now I am on a pension called welfare. Thanks a lot dear government.

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Oleg is a perfect example of why we need better support for those with mental illnesses.

I joke that he often borders the edges of sanity, but i think he just comes across as he does because he's an immigrant and his English and way of speaking is just different. At least i think lol.

Oleg you are good people.

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I would prefer we took a step backwards. Invest in the individual soldier instead of in massive war machines. In truth, I don't think we have given sufficient thought to the simple process of defense. Boots on the ground are everything, that is a fact. So why not just start where we should and see where it goes?

The individual soldier ought to be able to fly, drive, boat, and or quad his way across the nation while fighting. Mobility and operational integrity is the name of the game. Design and outfit from the soldier forward. Research into exoskeleton design and development may be found to be the ideal first step. Instead of laser weapons I would seek "needle" guns, light weight simple power source types of weapons. There are many ways to develop our military and of those ways are conventional and non-conventional methods. I think we need to do something different.

What we need are robots. Boots on the ground are very controversial and low in public support. Robots are the future. Expendable. We need giant robots with super-lasers to replace our tanks and aircraft, and mass armies of smaller robots with light-sabers & laser pistols to replace the soldier. Building some X-Wings and Tie Fighters would also be very cool for our human soldiers to use and would boost troop morale. After success of our initial robot armies attains major public approval, a Death Star or Borg Cube should be our #1 priority for global and galactic domination.

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What we need are robots. Boots on the ground are very controversial and low in public support. Robots are the future. Expendable. We need giant robots with super-lasers to replace our tanks and aircraft, and mass armies of smaller robots with light-sabers & laser pistols to replace the soldier. Building some X-Wings and Tie Fighters would also be very cool for our human soldiers to use and would boost troop morale. After success of our initial robot armies attains major public approval, a Death Star or Borg Cube should be our #1 priority for global and galactic domination.

I am liking the way you are going with this. Especially the super-laser part. But if we could build personal shielding cheap enough, we wouldn't need expensive robots, just regular people. And from all the studies out there, we could really use the exercise.

So if we had soldiers with power boots, personal shields, firing super-laser guns we would be the envy. We could probably make quite a tidy profit on that by selling the technology for the right price. Then once everyone has spent their wad on the *new* Canadarms (get it??) we could take the profit and come up with something even more powerful and cool. Maybe then we start producing the robots...

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I would prefer we took a step backwards. Invest in the individual soldier instead of in massive war machines. In truth, I don't think we have given sufficient thought to the simple process of defense. Boots on the ground are everything, that is a fact. So why not just start where we should and see where it goes?

The individual soldier ought to be able to fly, drive, boat, and or quad his way across the nation while fighting. Mobility and operational integrity is the name of the game. Design and outfit from the soldier forward. Research into exoskeleton design and development may be found to be the ideal first step. Instead of laser weapons I would seek "needle" guns, light weight simple power source types of weapons. There are many ways to develop our military and of those ways are conventional and non-conventional methods. I think we need to do something different.

What we need are robots. Boots on the ground are very controversial and low in public support. Robots are the future. Expendable. We need giant robots with super-lasers (maybe something like Voltron?) to replace our tanks and aircraft, and mass armies of smaller robots with light-sabers & laser pistols to replace the soldier. Building some X-Wings and Tie Fighters would also be very cool for our human soldiers to use and would boost troop morale. After success of our initial robot armies attains major public approval, a Death Star or Borg Cube should be our #1 priority for global and galactic domination.

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Oleg is a perfect example of why we need better support for those with mental illnesses.

IF and I say IF one single ant in a collective decides that eating shit is not as good or healthy as eathing honey - that rebel ant will be villianized and considered the mentally ill ant...because said ant does not go with the common flow of the shit eater...as for your support for mental illness - send money and I will be healed....lol!

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Now that any attempt to devert my train of thought has been quashed...lets get back to the real buisness of this thread. What the proposal is regarding more organized procurement of weaponry is all about is kissing the ass of our American brothers - who hope to suck on the Canadian pubic tit in the hope of getting more milk that they don't need...Let the Americans suck on their own motherly population that is more accustomed to abuse.

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<_< How about we just spend it on roads, schools, hospitals instead.

$240 B is a slush fund even bigger than the G8/G20 fun-money barrel-'o-pork. If he has that kind of war chest to draw from, Harper will be around even longer than WLMK!

Whenever I hear a suggestion like yours Molly I get this heartwrenching image of one of my daughters dead because someone made an aggressive move against Canada and we had no military capability to effectively protect ourselves.

As I look down in anguish at her body I hear someone say "Well, at least she got a good education!"

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What do a few nukes cost anyway? Probably cheaper than what is being proposed here. Why screw around with conventional arms? Go right for the throat and get the best most powerful weapons _NUKES ! Other than that - this proposal is simply a transfere of wealth from the populace to the manufacturer of pitiful conventional weapons.

You would think that are politicans read the book on the Krupp family - and admired their enterprise a little to much _ we are an evolved nation and are not to envolve our selves in the killing of common stupid soldiers all in the aim of profit for a cruel and nasty bunch of quiet and hidden elite that imagine the death of a blue collar soldier as the price of doing buisness.

Sure we should have some conventional weapons - but to build a society on war is not wise...Look at America and the poverty military spending is responsible for domestically...It could happen here - we must be careful not to make the same mistakes as our southern brothers or North Korea - which is an extreme example.

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What do a few nukes cost anyway? Probably cheaper than what is being proposed here. Why screw around with conventional arms? Go right for the throat and get the best most powerful weapons _NUKES ! Other than that - this proposal is simply a transfere of wealth from the populace to the manufacturer of pitiful conventional weapons.

You would think that are politicans read the book on the Krupp family - and admired their enterprise a little to much _ we are an evolved nation and are not to envolve our selves in the killing of common stupid soldiers all in the aim of profit for a cruel and nasty bunch of quiet and hidden elite that imagine the death of a blue collar soldier as the price of doing buisness.

Sure we should have some conventional weapons - but to build a society on war is not wise...Look at America and the poverty military spending is responsible for domestically...It could happen here - we must be careful not to make the same mistakes as our southern brothers or North Korea - which is an extreme example.

Non-sequiturs, Oleg. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that we should not spend resources on soldiers, because they COULD be used in some corrupt manner!

That doesn't address the need for them in the first place. It only says we should use them properly. Surely you're not claiming that there is no need for soldiers EXCEPT for corrupt purposes!

Having only nukes makes no sense at all, especially to a techie like myself. It's like a carpenter trying to do various jobs with only one hammer - a 20 lb sledge! There are times when dealing with other nations when if your only choice is to capitulate or totally destroy your opponent with nuclear fire you really have no choice at all.

As Robert Heinlein once said, "If you have an effective infantry you can deliver a light spank when needed, rather than an all out war."

You say we should have "some conventional weapons". Isn't that the question? The most expensive armies are the ones that prove second best. You're dead and/or your people are enslaved. Canada traditionally has had old, inadequate and insufficient conventional weapons. Good schools though! Whenever a war came along we had to spend the first several years building up those conventional forces before they were good for much of anything. Our history books rarely mention how many young Canadians died in the first few years of WWI and WWII because we had no decent arms and equipment to give them. I have always considered this callous attitude toward lives as despicable as war-mongering!

Frankly, if we ever had another war I'm not sure if I would want my children to enlist. If a country thinks so little of those pledged to defend it that they would send them out with bows and arrows against modern lightning then to Hell with such a country! It doesn't DESERVE to be defended!

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Well, to answer the original question, I think each branch of the armed forced should be given a procurement budget and should be allowed to procure what they believe is necessary, both in terms of equipment as well as investment in R&D. We don't need a separate agency, but just an office that handles this in each branch of the forces.

In regards to "ray guns" and directed energy weapons, these are not as far away as you might think. Miniaturizing the entire system to a handheld size is difficult only because of the power supply requirement. You just can't store enough energy in a handheld system to make more than a few shots of a high power laser or plasma weapon system. But weapon systems of this type are not that hard to make if you connect it to a stationary power supply. For example, on a day bored in the lab during my PhD days I built a plasma gun that shot a visible bolt of blue plasma about 20m through the air before it dissipated. Not too hard, all you need is some coaxial conical electrodes that you can quickly make out of sheet aluminum, a pulse power supply system that can deliver a few hundred kW of power for a few microseconds, and a fast-acting (sub-millisecond) gas valve. It was based on a design that one of my profs casually described in a plasma class and called the "klingon gun".

More viably, the US military has been developing lasers for use on ships and airplanes for some time, and many of them are already effective as weapons, though none have yet been deployed except in defensive anti-missile roles.

As for robots, yes, robotic equipment is certainly the future of the military. Why risk soldiers when you don't have to? Unmanned systems are also inherently much cheaper. I'd bet drones now conduct more air reconnaissance and combat missions than manned planes do. While robots to replace infantry are not yet available, we could certainly be replacing tanks and combat vehicles of that sort with fully robotic systems.

Of the ideas mentioned here, the "personal energy shielding" is the one furthest from reality. Unlike most other fantastical technologies, there is fundamentally no known physics that could allow for energy shields that work in the way shown in science fiction shows. There are some ideas out there for systems that could work in vaguely that way when used on a spacecraft in the vacuum of space, for example using powerful magnetic fields to create a bubble of confined superheated plasma that would vaporize incoming projectiles and diffuse lasers, but such systems would not work at all inside an atmosphere.

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As for robots, yes, robotic equipment is certainly the future of the military. Why risk soldiers when you don't have to? Unmanned systems are also inherently much cheaper. I'd bet drones now conduct more air reconnaissance and combat missions than manned planes do. While robots to replace infantry are not yet available, we could certainly be replacing tanks and combat vehicles of that sort with fully robotic systems.

Sounds like Keith Laumer's "Bolos" might actually come true some day!

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