New Democratic Parties Across Canada

[cybercoma]

From my admittedly limited exposure to those receiving it, it doesn't appear to be unappealing to a fairly significant segment of our society.

But this is a great point. In the days of my youth, and even as a young adult, it was a shameful thing to be on welfare, and the recipients worked like hell to get off it. That attitude is long lost now.

There is undoubtedly still a stigma surrounding it. Anecdotally, I have known people that qualified by absolutely refused to go on social assistance, instead racking up insurmountable debts and tapping friends and family dry.

Edited July 3, 2011 by cybercoma

[Evening Star]

I believe Rae was unsuccessful as a Liberal before he went to the provincial NDP as well. Perhaps his interlude with the NDP was merely a matter of opportunity.

I don't know a whole lot about Bob Rae. Would people characterize him as an opportunist?

He was a Young Liberal in the 60s but, at least according to Wikipedia, became an NDP member in 1974. He was a prominent NDP MP and finance critic from 1978-1982, playing an important role in bringing down Clark's government. He spent more than two decades in the NDP. I personally tend to think Rae's views did genuinely change over his career.

Edited July 4, 2011 by Evening Star

[fellowtraveller]

I personally tend to think Rae's views did genuinely change over his career.

Then perhaps you could explain what Rae- as a Liberal- has as guiding principles? The last few leaders have failed miserably to outline anything coherent, maybe you or Bob could help.

I think Bob moved to the Liberals and the House of Commons because he was a bit short on pension from his abrupt end in provincial politics. It was either back to the Commons or (shudder) get a job.

[Newfoundlander]

Then perhaps you could explain what Rae- as a Liberal- has as guiding principles? The last few leaders have failed miserably to outline anything coherent, maybe you or Bob could help.

I think Bob moved to the Liberals and the House of Commons because he was a bit short on pension from his abrupt end in provincial politics. It was either back to the Commons or (shudder) get a job.

Bob Rae has had jobs and spent a numbers of years outside politics.

[Evening Star]

Then perhaps you could explain what Rae- as a Liberal- has as guiding principles? The last few leaders have failed miserably to outline anything coherent, maybe you or Bob could help.

This was a pretty well-known statement, giving reasons why he left the NDP: http://www.cjpac.ca/statements/read/8/235

I do believe that he was sincere about those reasons.

He posts regular statements on his blog: http://bobrae.liberal.ca/

Whether all of this adds up to a compelling alternative to the Conservatives and NDP is another question, however. The answer to that remains to be seen imo. I can see how it could.

(Giving the length of his service, I kind of doubt he was short on pension btw.)

Edited July 5, 2011 by Evening Star

[Evening Star]

Tbh, though, my sense is that, even as an NDP premier, Rae was more sincerely committed to issues like same-sex benefits, employment equity, Native rights, standardization in education, 'distinct society' BS, etc than he was to a serious effort at social democratic economic policies or labour advocacy.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Evening Star

[Newfoundlander]

I'd really be interested in hearing policies from Bob Rae, particularly his economic policies. I've always found it odd that a former NDP premier was supported during his leadership bids by blue grits like Maurizio Bevilacqua and Scott Brison.

[punked]

I'd really be interested in hearing policies from Bob Rae, particularly his economic policies. I've always found it odd that a former NDP premier was supported during his leadership bids by blue grits like Maurizio Bevilacqua and Scott Brison.

Why they are Liberals. Whatever the wind blows is how they lean.

[Evening Star]

I'd really be interested in hearing policies from Bob Rae, particularly his economic policies. I've always found it odd that a former NDP premier was supported during his leadership bids by blue grits like Maurizio Bevilacqua and Scott Brison.

Yeah, actually, I have no real sense of his views on economic policy or if he even has very strong ones, beyond a general appreciation for the 'Third Way'. As I said, I'm not sure if he was all that committed to social democracy even when he was an NDP premier. Odd, considering he was Broadbent's finance critic.

[RNG]

Yeah, actually, I have no real sense of his views on economic policy or if he even has very strong ones, beyond a general appreciation for the 'Third Way'. As I said, I'm not sure if he was all that committed to social democracy even when he was an NDP premier. Odd, considering he was Broadbent's finance critic.

I have heard the phrase, or perhaps war-cry "the third way" from Liberals forever. (Hyperbole, admittedly) But what does it mean?

[Evening Star]

I have heard the phrase, or perhaps war-cry "the third way" from Liberals forever. (Hyperbole, admittedly) But what does it mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_%28centrism%29

I always assumed that folks like Rae were referring especially to Tony Blair's 'New Labour' approach.

--

That's still relatively fuzzy, though, which may be what you're getting at.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Evening Star

[RNG]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_%28centrism%29

I always assumed that folks like Rae were referring especially to Tony Blair's 'New Labour' approach.

Reading that, it sort of a weak sister of libertaianism.

Edited July 6, 2011 by RNG

[Bryan]

With the circumstances they were given, the NDP governments in MB and SK were able to keep expenditures below revenues such that they were not spending the "next generation's money". That was your concern, right? According to the Fraser Institute (not exactly notorious for favouring the NDP), Doer maintained an average budget surplus and reduced the province's debt over the course of his term.

That is not true. Under the PCs we had surplusses. Balanced budget legislation was the law. The NDP have been running massive deficits. They've added billions to our debt load. There's a reason the media calls our current finance minister a "weapon of math destruction".

[punked]

That is not true. Under the PCs we had surplusses. Balanced budget legislation was the law. The NDP have been running massive deficits. They've added billions to our debt load. There's a reason the media calls our current finance minister a "weapon of math destruction".

Yah Gary Filmore was great right? Except for the vote rigging and BTW your LIES about balanced budgets is the dumbest thing I ever heard. Filmore had plenty of deficits, the PCs had plenty of deficits. Heck they clocked up like 700 MILLION dollars on the debt in 1993 alone, see I have to go back that far because it has been a while since those guys ran Manitoba but you can't rewrite history just because you want to.

[fellowtraveller]

It is utterly stupid and outright deceptive for Manitoba to pretend they enjoy economic prosperity and superb fiscal management while they continue to enjoy a few billion in equalization payments each and every every year.

Balanced budget. No deficit. Yeah, sure.

[Oleg Bach]

I assume that the NDP would be more left wing in the more prosperous provinces. People with more money and privledge like to dabble in socialism more than the poor - The poor just want to make sure they eat-and probably are more practical and conservative even though they carry the NDP banner. The NDP in Toronto are big on Trotskite philosphy - were as someone from the back waters of Newfoundland just wants to ensure they get their pension or welfare cheque.

[Evening Star]

That is not true. Under the PCs we had surplusses. Balanced budget legislation was the law. The NDP have been running massive deficits. They've added billions to our debt load. There's a reason the media calls our current finance minister a "weapon of math destruction".

Well, here's the Fraser Institute study I was referring to: http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicationdisplay.aspx?id=17134&terms=fiscal+performance+premiers

Do you have a source for your claim to the contrary?

Edited July 6, 2011 by Evening Star

[punked]

Well, here's the Fraser Institute study I was referring to: http://www.fraserinstitute.org/publicationdisplay.aspx?id=17134&terms=fiscal+performance+premiers

Do you have a source for your claim to the contrary?

No because he is repeating conservative made up fantasy all Conservatives in Manitoba try to pawn off. Acting like they never ran a deficit when they ran ones bigger then the NDP now and they were doing it in dollars of 20 years ago which means they were much much bigger. It is a bunch of bull crap trying to rewrite history because he thinks no one remembers those times so he can tell any lies he wants.

[Uncle 3 dogs]

General NDP plan is to decrease personal taxes & increase services, business taxes and hugely---- deficits.

For some reason the NDP seems to think that all provinces have the ability to decrease taxes & apply the "today" services to the "Tomorrow" prosperity---- which mostly never comes.

Want to see the finances of yopur province go into (or deeper into) the deficit hole --- vote the NDP in.

Actually, in Saskatchewan it was a Conservative government that nearly bankrupted the province after decades of responsible rule by theCCF/NDP.

[Dithers]

Our NDP leader often says that our money should be used for today and not put away for tomorrow.

Tilter's kind of wishy-washy fear mongering that has does not even attempt to seek a base in reality, much less reason, is the typical Conservative assault on anything that is not right of center.

Must....destroy...middle-class.....

Edited July 17, 2011 by Dithers

[Dithers]

I assume that the NDP would be more left wing in the more prosperous provinces. People with more money and privledge like to dabble in socialism more than the poor - The poor just want to make sure they eat-and probably are more practical and conservative even though they carry the NDP banner. The NDP in Toronto are big on Trotskite philosphy - were as someone from the back waters of Newfoundland just wants to ensure they get their pension or welfare cheque.

Wow....get out of your basement much? Must be tough on your eyes.

The NDP's base of support is lower income bracket Einstein.

[jacee]

Let's not forget that the NDP proposes to balance budgets by decreasing the income disparity between the wealthiest 20% and the rest of us. The gap has been growing for decades as the richest take more and more from our pockets to theirs. Large disparities are associated with increased unrest, crime and poverty. And the richest increasingly live behind bars. :-]

It's proposed to stop the gravy train, tax the wealthiest to stop the drain on public money and ensure health and other services for all seniors, food in schools for all kids, etc.

[Newfoundlander]

Let's not forget that the NDP proposes to balance budgets by decreasing the income disparity between the wealthiest 20% and the rest of us. The gap has been growing for decades as the richest take more and more from our pockets to theirs. Large disparities are associated with increased unrest, crime and poverty. And the richest increasingly live behind bars. :-]

It's proposed to stop the gravy train, tax the wealthiest to stop the drain on public money and ensure health and other services for all seniors, food in schools for all kids, etc.

Over taxing people who make $200,000 does not help us because those are the doctors we need, and other professionals like engineers, scientists and so on. These people are also spending more which helps create businesses. If we start taxing businesses and business people to much they will go elsewhere.

[jacee]

Over taxing people who make $200,000 does not help us because those are the doctors we need, and other professionals like engineers, scientists and so on. These people are also spending more which helps create businesses. If we start taxing businesses and business people to much they will go elsewhere.

I agree that the top 20% is too big a target. The real gap is that the top 1% (over $500k) have 40% of the wealth, and the bottom 50% share 1%.

I guess (Obama and) the NDP would use a scale starting at 200k ?

I think of the income disparity as an indicator of gouging people. :-]

[bush_cheney2004]

I guess (Obama and) the NDP would use a scale starting at 200k ?

Huh? Obama is not a member of the NDP.

I think of the income disparity as an indicator of gouging people. :-]

I agree...the rich have to pay most of the taxes!