Oceans in distress foreshadow mass extinction

[Michael Hardner]

I want some examples of lies, before I take a statement that climatologists might be lying about evidence for global warming seriously!

Should we lie to them and say that no scientist has ever made a mistake or ever overstated the case about AGW ?

No, we have to admit mistakes and errors.

Since there have been so many examples of: CO2 projections, ocean acidification, sea ice loss and permafrost decline, that have turned out worse than originally projected in climate models -- the evidence should point in the opposite direction -- that the threats have been dangerously underestimated.

In the past they have for sure, but these things change all the time. Rather than give either side fodder for pointing at the latest projection and saying "see ! it was adjusted upward/downward" then let's just acknowledge that they change, that AGW is likely real, and move forward.

[WIP]

I knew all that already, but didn't want to derail your thread any more than has already been done.

Oh, every thread gets derailed here; I don't expect mine to stay on topic any more than the others do. I just wish the ones who turned this into bashing Haiti would admit that their underlying theory for Haiti's, Africa's, and Black America's problems is because they are black....and then they could address the history...which in Haiti's case also includes the fact that Haiti was saddled with debt by France when it became the first, and possibly only colony to successfully revolt against their colonial masters, and the U.S. enforced the payment of those debts....and the rest is history.

[bush_cheney2004]

....and the U.S. enforced the payment of those debts....and the rest is history.

Well don't stop there....surely we should give Canada credit for hatching a plot to overthrow the democratically elected government from Ottawa!

The most visible result of this shift came in February 2004, when U.S., French, and Canadian troops removed President Aristide from office[x].

International planning for Aristide’s removal took place in Ottawa, under the Liberal government of Prime Minister Jean Chretien

[xi]. The international force installed an unelected government, which was led by Gerard Latortue from 2004 to 2006.

The Latortue government cracked down violently on the poverty-stricken Haitian population, concentrating their efforts on the slums of Cité Soleil and Bel Air in Port-au-Prince, causing thousands of deaths[xii]. Canada’s response was silent support. In November 2004 Prime Minister Paul Martin even made the first visit to Haiti by a Canadian Prime Minister, and appointed Haitian-born Michaëlle Jean as Canada’s Governor General.

Instead of condemning the coup regime, Canada supported efforts to tarnish the ousted government. An egregious case was CIDA’s funding of the now discredited National Coalition for Haiti Rights (NCHR) to produce a report accusing the ousted government of committing a massacre in the region of St. Marc[xiii]. Although the NCHR investigation produced no evidence, its conclusion accused the ousted government of barbaric acts.

[TimG]

Which in Haiti's case also includes the fact that Haiti was saddled with debt by France when it became the first, and possibly only colony to successfully revolt against their colonial masters, and the U.S. enforced the payment of those debts....and the rest is history.

The fact is some societies are simply disfunctional. I posit no theory for why some are and some are not but trying to come up wuth bogus justifications and rationalizations does not change a damn thing. You argument makes as much sense as blaming the guy selling alcohol because some drunk can't get his life together. Edited June 24, 2011 by TimG

[GostHacked]

I hate to break more bad news, but the flooding situation in China is getting even worse! A couple of days ago, a new report on the flooded areas says that over 5 million people have been forced out of their homes by flooding. The areas being flooded were having record droughts up until a few weeks ago, and this is in a region that China depends heavily on for food production.

Most of the flooding we see now involved prime farm land. Which is going to really have an effect later this year and early next year. China, Canada, USA are all going through this, (I suspect many other countries as well).

A recent FAO Report on global food production has been "cautiously optimistic" as they say, for this year. They were expecting a slight improvement and stabilization of world grain prices; but, right in the report it states that their projections are based on the assumption of "relatively normal weather" -- situations like the one in China and many other major food producing regions throw the monkey wrench into plans to get things back to normal. And this is the most obvious indication that global warming is already becoming a factor in our lives.

I still don't buy into the global warming bit myself, but the weather has seemed to change in the last few years. But since I do also look at geo-engineering things and weather modification, I can't help but to think that is also starting to have an effect on our weather.

But regardless, food crops are going to take a real hit and food is going to skyrocket in price soon. Stock up while you can and while it is cheap (for now) and while it lasts. Always good to be prepared.

[bloodyminded]

Haiti is a basket case because of globalization and the neoliberal economics that you celebrate! Before Clinton became U.S. President, Haiti was self-sufficient in food production,except for the occasional hurricane or other natural disaster. When Clinton made arrangements for Jean Bertrand Aristide to return as President of Haiti after a military coup overthrew his government, the one concession that Clinton demanded of Aristide, was that he accept the so called free market reforms of the military government that removed tariffs on cheap imported rice and other foods. Small farms crashed...just like in Mexico and other places discovering the wonders of free trade...and newly landless and unemployed Haitian farmers flooded the cities....just like Mexico...and were soon looking for opportunities to emigrate in search of places where they could live and work....sounds like Mexico again!

So, Haiti is a basket case because of the economic system that will likely collapse a few years from now. Interesting to note that Aristide was barred from running for president in the last Haitian elections. To keep international aid flowing, Haitians had to accept a rigged election with a handpicked candidate for leader....some democracy! Why do they even bother with this charade any more?

Astonishingly, Clinton even admitted much of this (though not the hostile-to-democracy bit, gods, no)...recently, that is, long after he could do anything about it, in the usual formulation.

The "leftist media" did not evince much interest in an ex-president admitting that stated economic policies have always been bogus, and that the far-left critics were correct all along. Perhaps they were busy with a celebrity break-up or a Washington sex scandal.

[WIP]

Well don't stop there....surely we should give Canada credit for hatching a plot to overthrow the democratically elected government from Ottawa!

The most visible result of this shift came in February 2004, when U.S., French, and Canadian troops removed President Aristide from office[x].

International planning for Aristide’s removal took place in Ottawa, under the Liberal government of Prime Minister Jean Chretien

[xi]. The international force installed an unelected government, which was led by Gerard Latortue from 2004 to 2006.

The Latortue government cracked down violently on the poverty-stricken Haitian population, concentrating their efforts on the slums of Cité Soleil and Bel Air in Port-au-Prince, causing thousands of deaths[xii]. Canada’s response was silent support. In November 2004 Prime Minister Paul Martin even made the first visit to Haiti by a Canadian Prime Minister, and appointed Haitian-born Michaëlle Jean as Canada’s Governor General.

Instead of condemning the coup regime, Canada supported efforts to tarnish the ousted government. An egregious case was CIDA’s funding of the now discredited National Coalition for Haiti Rights (NCHR) to produce a report accusing the ousted government of committing a massacre in the region of St. Marc[xiii]. Although the NCHR investigation produced no evidence, its conclusion accused the ousted government of barbaric acts.

Thanks for adding to my argument that Haiti was never given a chance to succeed right from independence from France! Although I was referring to the ironic fact that after independence, the other colonial powers - including France's major enemy and rival - England, plus the other new nation in the hemisphere that overthrew a colonial government - the U.S.A., supported France's demand for reparations from Haiti after getting kicked out.

[WIP]

The fact is some societies are simply disfunctional. I posit no theory for why some are and some are not but trying to come up wuth bogus justifications and rationalizations does not change a damn thing. You argument makes as much sense as blaming the guy selling alcohol because some drunk can't get his life together.

Since you have not addressed the issues of imposed trade agreements, debt collection, and foreign ownership, your explanation for Haiti is patently obvious.

[WIP]

Astonishingly, Clinton even admitted much of this (though not the hostile-to-democracy bit, gods, no)...recently, that is, long after he could do anything about it, in the usual formulation.

The "leftist media" did not evince much interest in an ex-president admitting that stated economic policies have always been bogus, and that the far-left critics were correct all along. Perhaps they were busy with a celebrity break-up or a Washington sex scandal.

I heard about Clinton doing a partial backtracking on his Haitian Policies, but his apology was equivocal, and only mentioned in one interview. If Clinton was really interested in righting some past wrongs, why didn't he fly down there himself and voice his support for a real, free and open elections?

On this and many other issues, Bill Clinton and Barack Obama are examples of how Democratic centrists are worse than Republicans! It's like a game of good cop/bad cop, as on almost every issue, the Democrat tells us how their extremely limited difference with the Republican corporatists is the best the people can expect, and you'll just have to settle for the crap they call change and reform.

[WIP]

Most of the flooding we see now involved prime farm land. Which is going to really have an effect later this year and early next year. China, Canada, USA are all going through this, (I suspect many other countries as well).

I came across a story that in northern China, underground water levels are dropping one meter per year, aquifers are being overpumped to the point where sea water is starting to flow in India; Saudi Arabia will stop all wheat growing within five years due to water shortage....it's not hard to see how world grain prices are going to be affected.

[GostHacked]

I came across a story that in northern China, underground water levels are dropping one meter per year, aquifers are being overpumped to the point where sea water is starting to flow in India; Saudi Arabia will stop all wheat growing within five years due to water shortage....it's not hard to see how world grain prices are going to be affected.

It really does not look good. Not only is food going to go up in price, there will also be less to go around.

[dre]

It really does not look good. Not only is food going to go up in price, there will also be less to go around.

Maybe. Im not completely pessimistic though. I agree that our current agricultural model is unsustainable both because of soil errosion and pressure on water tables. But theres some promising solutions to these problems. We could potentially farm in an almost closed cycle in the immediate vicinity of the people consuming the food. Huge food factories hundreds of stories tall that only consume the ammount of moisture that leaves the factory in the final product (the water in fresh fruits and vegetables). Iv seen some pretty cool prototype designs that have potential. The problem of course is you need lots of cheap energy for these kinds of solutions because they depend partially on artificial lighting and manufactured chemicals.

[WIP]

Maybe. Im not completely pessimistic though. I agree that our current agricultural model is unsustainable both because of soil errosion and pressure on water tables. But theres some promising solutions to these problems. We could potentially farm in an almost closed cycle in the immediate vicinity of the people consuming the food. Huge food factories hundreds of stories tall that only consume the ammount of moisture that leaves the factory in the final product (the water in fresh fruits and vegetables). Iv seen some pretty cool prototype designs that have potential.

They call it "Vertical Farming," and I've come across a few stories about this strategy which this group is dedicated towards developing. I note that one of the problems which they already anticipate, is that vertical farming will not produce food cheap enough for most of the world's population without being subsidized.

Another thing I don't see mentioned here, but which will be a significant factor is such large scale greenhouse systems is the spread of fungus, plant diseases, harmful insects....all problems I can recall from working in greenhouses many years ago that were much smaller operations. The section of one greenhouse that was growing citrus and other tropical plants for public display, had to be sprayed so frequently, that the fruit was toxic and would cause serious harm to anyone who attempted to eat them.

The vertical farming systems might point a possible way out....it's not like we have an alternative choice since, as the vertical farming site notes - 80% of the Earth's land that is suitable for agriculture, is already in use!