Is Harper going after the unions?

[Shwa]

Why not? Is constantly demanding more compensation while screaming "strong middle class" and "living wage" is a better way to find a fair wage?

Isn't it? Do you have a better way or determining a fair wage that doesn't involve unions in any way, shape or form? If you do, why not put that on the table so we can all examine it.

[Topaz]

Why is this forums picking on the "little" guy and bring them down? Why not start at the top, where our tax dollars is really spent. OR why not bring every worker up to the top guy,as close as we can. The middle-class is having a bad time, and I don't understand this Tory government or any other government, that wants to crush the workers. I don't see any MPP or MP out on strike, I don't see any worker giving themselves a pay raise, or increasing their pensions with just a stroke of a pen! After reading all the comments, there's a division again in this country and the Tories aren't helping either. Have any of you ever watched on TV, "UNDER BOSS"? If not, maybe you should. Bosses go under cover in their own companies and find out how the workers work, what improvements can be etc, ALL bosses have found out its not easy for their workers and have made changes to improve conditions. If all bosses made it more of a pleasure to work for that boss, then there would be no use for unions but that`s not the case and that why there are unions to help the workers.

[CPCFTW]

A few of the 50k employees are cashiers... Exception, not the rule. Not that I expect you mind to be able to comprehend the difference.

If only a few of the employees were cashiers, why was one of the unions demands that CP start offering more banking services? Were the couriers going to cash cheques while en route delivering mail? Or is it more likely that cashiers compose a little more than "a few" of the 50k employees?

[CPCFTW]

Isn't it? Do you have a better way or determining a fair wage that doesn't involve unions in any way, shape or form? If you do, why not put that on the table so we can all examine it.

Why not involve unions in any way shape or form when determining a fair wage for a union of workers?

If you really insist on not comparing to private unions, then using non-unionized comparable private workers would be much more palatable than simply demanding more and more compensation throughout every phase of the business cycle. Of course if we were to use that method, public service workers would be getting a 50% pay cut.

Edited June 26, 2011 by CPCFTW

[CPCFTW]

Why is this forums picking on the "little" guy and bring them down? Why not start at the top, where our tax dollars is really spent. OR why not bring every worker up to the top guy,as close as we can. The middle-class is having a bad time, and I don't understand this Tory government or any other government, that wants to crush the workers. I don't see any MPP or MP out on strike, I don't see any worker giving themselves a pay raise, or increasing their pensions with just a stroke of a pen! After reading all the comments, there's a division again in this country and the Tories aren't helping either.

Sounds reasonable. Why not just give every public sector worker a million dollars of the private sector's money and harem of 100 private sector virgins? Or at least as many private sector virgins as we can.

Edited June 26, 2011 by CPCFTW

[noahbody]

Why should we use "private unions" as any sort of baseline for the measurement of anything?

Because in this case it shows the pay/compensation for Postal Workers is way out of whack.

[mikedavid00]

Isn't it? Do you have a better way or determining a fair wage that doesn't involve unions in any way, shape or form? If you do, why not put that on the table so we can all examine it.

It's this crazy concept called the 'free market' that relies on this wacky thing 'supply and demand' to determine wages.

When Calgary has a lot of people employed in good jobs, the Tim Horton's has trouble hiring workers for minimum wage because no one wants to work at Timmie's. So the only way to hire workers, is to RAISE WAGES AND BENEFITS to entice people to work at Tim Horton's in Calgary. Mr. Landscaper finds out that Tim Hortons is paying more than what he makes with better benefits and goes there. The Landscaping company is forced to offer their employees more benefits and higher wages to attract people. Eventually, the indolents in society (deadbeat kids, the lazy) get 'called' to work by their city. Also, people will come in from other regions of Canada to fill jobs if they pay is good enough. When everyone has money, everyone is going out and spending in the local economy and small business can survive. Restaurants open and are all successful. Musicians finally get gigs. Everyone is happy. Don't you see. What we have is true wage equality. The Tim Hortons worker may get paid more than some useless techno geek with his degree who is all self important. It all comes down to supply and demand; NOT 'well i got this peice of paper therefore i'm smarter and deserve x salary and the gov't should ensure I get my entitlement'. Take your little institutional piece of toilet paper and go home. Wages and benefits will be determined by supply and demand. The key for good wages is to ensure that there is NOT an over supply of labor in the market (immigration).

QUESTION: "WOW THIS SOUNDS GREAT! BUT WHAT RUINS THIS PERFECT PARADISE????"

ANSWER: "AS USUAL, THE GOV'T RUINS IT FOR EVERYONE BY THE BELOW"

1 - Allowing Unions

2 - Needless Immigration which creates a HUGE over abundance of workers to ensure wages and benefits are low for working Canadians.

It all comes down to supply and demand. It's the free market. The only place that is free market is probably Hong Kong.

What we live in, and most of the industrialized world is called 'socialist fascism'. This is where the gov't and private sector are joined at the hip, attempt to control wages, and determine the outcome of the market place in order to protect a stock market comprised of public sector investment (pensions). We live in fascism across most of the world. Especially Japan. Hitler loved unions so much, he made all workers in Germany part of the same union.

Unions and needless immigration (something I call 'people-flooding') are sure fire ways to kill a free economy.

WHEN THERE'S NO FREE ECONOMY - THERE'S NO FREEDOM! UNDERSTAND THIS.

THE GOV'T HAS LEGISLATED YOU OUT OF A FREE MARKET PLACE, HAS TAKEN AWAY YOUR HOPES TO GET A JOB AND TO START YOUR OWN BUSINESS. IT'S NOW BECOMING A POLICE STATE THAT IS ANTI CITIZEN. WE'RE IN EARLY STAGES.

(don't believe me, go try to find out what's involved in opening a burger joint. The gov't has red-taped and legislated all the cards against you and discourages your small business. Go see for yourself. You can't swing a 'mom and pop' shop anymore. The economy has become 'corporatised.. meaning stock market. Stock market meaning the place where gov't and union pension funds are held. Make no mistake, our stock market is funded with union pension funds. Most of those funds are ultimately - YOUR TAX DOLLARS. This is facism and you LOSE your freedom. The gov't has taken it from you and the more upset you get, the more of a police state you will have. The more you don't like unions, the more the police state grows. To be a good citizen, just obey and support the police and gov't).

[bloodyminded]

ANSWER: "AS USUAL, THE GOV'T RUINS IT FOR EVERYONE BY THE BELOW"

1 - Allowing Unions

"Allowing"?

So, you are a proponent of Big Government after all. And yet somehow unaware. Doublethink?

[Shwa]

Why not involve unions in any way shape or form when determining a fair wage for a union of workers?

If you really insist on not comparing to private unions, then using non-unionized comparable private workers would be much more palatable than simply demanding more and more compensation throughout every phase of the business cycle. Of course if we were to use that method, public service workers would be getting a 50% pay cut.

So in other words, you are unable to determine a fair wage that doesn't involve unions in one way, shape or form. Is that what you are admitting too? Because so far, all you have done is waffled on my challenge with alot of empty hot air.

If you are unable to come up with some way to determine a fair wage that doesn't involve unions, just say so...

[Shwa]

Because in this case it shows the pay/compensation for Postal Workers is way out of whack.

Really? Then tell me what Constitutional obligation DHL has, say, as opposed to postal workers.

[bloodyminded]

So in other words, you are unable to determine a fair wage that doesn't involve unions in one way, shape or form. Is that what you are admitting too? Because so far, all you have done is waffled on my challenge with alot of empty hot air.

If you are unable to come up with some way to determine a fair wage that doesn't involve unions, just say so...

Someone here suggested WalMart wages as a decent measurement, but it appears most folks here don't quite agree with that assessment, fortunately.

[Shwa]

Someone here suggested WalMart wages as a decent measurement, but it appears most folks here don't quite agree with that assessment, fortunately.

Walmart doesn't count since many of the truckers that deliver the goods are Teamsters. Thus, using Walmart as an example involves unions and no doubt factors into their processes and costs.

[noahbody]

Really? Then tell me what Constitutional obligation DHL has, say, as opposed to postal workers.

Yes really. How about this... we pay them what they'd get paid in a private union and make them a registered charity so people like you who feel they deserve more can give them some of your salary.

[Shwa]

Yes really. How about this... we pay them what they'd get paid in a private union and make them a registered charity so people like you who feel they deserve more can give them some of your salary.

So you dodge the question about Constitutional responsibility and resort to clumsy posturing instead. Uh-huh. Oh well, I guess "people like you" are prone to avoiding complexities right?

Let's take it in another direction: do you believe that the workers at the Canadian Royal Mint should be paid the same amount of money as similar workers at, say, the Franklin Mint?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

These debates always entertain me. In my opinion whether or not a person works in a union environment or not should be the business of the individual. The right to freedom of association is fundamental in this nation, as it should be.

[bloodyminded]

Walmart doesn't count since many of the truckers that deliver the goods are Teamsters. Thus, using Walmart as an example involves unions and no doubt factors into their processes and costs.

I hadn't thought of that. You're right. Much of the chief supplier to WalMart is also heavily unionized, after its own fashion.

[noahbody]

So you dodge the question about Constitutional responsibility and resort to clumsy posturing instead. Uh-huh. Oh well, I guess "people like you" are prone to avoiding complexities right?

What's your claim, that it enshrined in the constitution that Canada post workers are the highest paid in the mail delivery business?

Let's take it in another direction: do you believe that the workers at the Canadian Royal Mint should be paid the same amount of money as similar workers at, say, the Franklin Mint?

So you're saying the mail carried by private courier companies is different? The union is trying to say it's the same mail isn't it?

[Remiel]

I am still waiting for someone to show me where this fantasy world is where the " free market " had nothing to do with setting the wages of postal workers.

[Jack Weber]

Government unions don't set the bar, they exceed it. For example, the courier DHL is unionized and their couriers aren't paid anything near what Canada Post currently pays their letter carriers. Perhaps we should bring Canada Post workers in line with what private unions believe is "fair wage" for the same type of work.

And you're conveniently trying to change the subject and cloud the issue..

I said trades...Ya'know like "Plumber (pipefitter),Electrician...etc...

Edited June 26, 2011 by Jack Weber

[RNG]

And you're conveniently trying to change the subject and cloud the issue..

I said trades...Ya'know like "Plumber (pipefitter),Electrician...etc...

Exactly. Mailpersons aren't a trade so don't deserve anywhere near the salary they get.

[cybercoma]

After Bill C-6, no employer anywhere needs to negotiate with unions. They can just lock the doors and complain to the government that the economy is being destroyed. The government will just pass back-to-work legislation lowering the employees wages and binding the hands of the arbitrator.

[mikedavid00]

Someone here suggested WalMart wages as a decent measurement, but it appears most folks here don't quite agree with that assessment, fortunately.

Wow.

Ok the Wal Mart wage might pay more in one area. Might pay less in another. It's SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

The more DEMAND you have have to hire employees, the higher the pay. (Tim Horton's in Calgary). The more SUPPLY of employees to work the same job, the LESS it pays.

This is how it SHOULD work in a FREE MARKET society (which we do NOT live in).

Intellectuals like yourself should never determine what a 'fair wage' is for certain work. That is basically communism.

[mikedavid00]

The right to freedom of association is fundamental in this nation, as it should be.

There is NO right to association in this country. If there was, I would be able to open a cigar club and allow smoking inside. I am not free to associate with other smokers. This means there is no real freedom of association.

There are no freedoms actually. It's just an illusion that the media sells.

Unions matter because we live in a FASCIST state. The unions work for gov't protected industries 9 times out of 10. Facts are, DHL relies on our gov't (border control, airports, etc) to be in business. The gov't will protect DHL because it's a publicly traded company.

Who invests in these stocks? People with pensions. Who holds pensions? UNION MEMBERS DO. Who are union members in Canada? 3 out of 4 are the CIVIL SERVICE. Where does the pension money come from? THE CIVILIAN. YOU AND ME. And how much money does the average Canadian make who is NOT in a union? -> About 25k-30k per person on average. These people don't have money to invest in the stock market. They can barely make ends meet because they have half of their money taken away from them by big brother.

The unions price fix themselves into outrageous wages and benefits and pensions on OUR DOLLAR. Private OR Public. The gov't aids and embeds them in this. My car, *SHOULD* cost about $15k. It costs for $40k. Most of the inflated cost is going to UNION SALARIES FROM THE AUTO WORERS AND PART MANUFACTURER UNIONS.

YOUR ENERGY BILL IS SO HIGH BECAUSE YOU ARE PAYING HUGE, HUGE, HUUUUGE SALARIES AND BENEFITS FOR BUTTON PUSHERS THAT WORK AT ENERGY PLANTS. THAT *IS* WHAT YOUR POWER BILL IS ALL ABOUT.

Unions effect every one of us like you have NO idea and it's what makes us fascist. Call it an 'added tax' of over inflated prices and services to cover overly inflated paychecks.

Unions take away the law of natural, free market economics. It destroys the laws of supply and demand.

I'm telling you they are sick, corrupt, and evil.

If you want to live in an AMAZING country, and have an amazing life with great salaries and benefits for everyone, then you want a free market economy and say NO to fascism. Say NO to the gov't. Say NO to unions and price fixing and gouging. And most importantly, say NO to useless immigration... mass 'people flooding' of our market place that ensures everyone's poverty.

[mikedavid00]

After Bill C-6, no employer anywhere needs to negotiate with unions. They can just lock the doors and complain to the government that the economy is being destroyed. The government will just pass back-to-work legislation lowering the employees wages and binding the hands of the arbitrator.

GOOD!

Finally some leadership in Canada (although I don't agree with the games and corrupt methods of how this is going down... at least SOMETHING is being done to stop this 'salary/benefit/pension CRAZINESS' in Canada.

[mikedavid00]

I am still waiting for someone to show me where this fantasy world is where the " free market " had nothing to do with setting the wages of postal workers.

Well I got $40 a week to work 1.5 hours a day to deliver the Ottawa Citizen newspaper which was MUCH harder work than delivering letters. I also had to work 6 days a week.

And also, when I couldn't deliver my route because I had a fever (I was 11-12 years old), I was told to get my parents or a friend to deliver it for me but it had to be done. I remember on boxing day having to run out and deliver the papers. All the blizzard, snow, you name it. Those bags were SO heavy in those days. I also had to do collections.

So a postal worker, who works even less than a teacher (lets face it their both part time jobs), somehow deserved more than I did???

My brother was in Cyprus and they had PLAIN CLOTHED, NON UNIONIZED, PART TIME, YOUNG, CIVILIANS delivering the mail on Fridays only. Just a days pay. They rode scooters and came out every Friday all over Cyprus delivering the mail. Plain clothed, young civilians. NO UNION. NO HIGH PAY. JUST PAY FOR A DAYS WORK ON FRIDAYS.

The job should be worth what it's worth. Let supply and demand dictate what the pay be.

Me thinks it would be like any other unskilled job - have no benefits, minimal sick days, minimal vacation, 50 managers watching and tracking your every move, a FULL 8 HOURS DAY WORK, and the pay would be 30%-50% over minimum wage. Something like $12/h to start. The perks would be no direct boss over you and being able to work with headphones (serious). It would draw a lot of people. If not, the pay would go up to accommodate.

In Canada, the gov't controls *everything*. The gov't basically dictates your life right now. Wait till the police state comes in.

It's more than just a police state.. it's a mentality of citizens. Citizens that snitch on each other. On this forum, no one ever got banned. It almost never happened. Yet for the first time, I've been banned twice now. I've said WAY, WAY worse things in the past. What is really happening is the mindset of the police state is setting in. You have Michael Harder running around policing the forum. Moderators here who used to be pretty cool, are now trying to threaten users so to speak not to be honest and strong willed in their posts or you'll be banned. Trying to set examples of people. This is all part of the police state to come.

I should mention that the police state does not come from the feds. It's more of a 'local' provincial, city, citizen thing. Not a fed thing. People always under estimate the power of the cities and provinces in certain things.

I told me brother.. "next thing you know, the gov't won't let you buy an oven and cook in your kitchen until you take a safety course proving you can cook and use an oven and knives safely". It was a joke at first.. then both of us pause and almost at the same time say "Actually I can seriously see that happening". In the UK after the gun bans, now gun crime is rampant. Also knives are being used? What kind? Kitchen knives. There's a knife problem in the UK. It's already in the works. New knives that don't have pointy tips. Licenses to buy a knife. All in the name of safety. Losing all your freedoms to big brother. I'm telling you mark my words the police state is coming. Don't give in.

-Stop Immigration.

-Stop Unions.

-And ideally, stop public schools and universities. Stop credentialism.

All are a sickness. A parasite of our country and culture. An evil.