Are you open to seperation?

[mikedavid00]

When an inner city NDP elite attempted to provide a private members bill to ban electric fences because it was cruel to animals(!) I had to sit back and think 'wow, these people do not understand country life' at all.

We have a house of commons comprised of elites from the cities who are bred out of our institution and have never worked a day in their life.

On the flip side, we have massive, massive country with a large portion of the population living in rural parts of Canada with almost no representation. We have homeowners in Northern Ontario, paying insane property taxes, and get no services. They are there to subsidize city dwellers.

I think part of the problem is, as Canadians, we can not easily travel to remote parts of Canada like you can in the US (due to other gov't corruption issues that I won't get into regarding air fare).

I think a lot of Canadians who live in and around cities never actually see the smaller areas so live in a bubble.

The reason why Toronto is the center of the world is because it really is that way - over representation in the house of commons. Their issues (gun violence) becomes a Canada issue, and too many politicians are based out of the big cities.

This is NOT the case in the USA. Also, NY and California don't run the whole county. They're issues are not the issues of the entire US despite the fact that a third of their whole country resides in these 2 states (i think).

I just feel it's time to break from the monarchy and choose something that would suit our needs better like an electoral college system or allowing the split of more provinces so there is better representation of different regions and cultures. We need to get away from this police state we live in and if that means portions of the country separating than I'm all for it. Our gov't is way, way too centralized right now and is simply too large. The worst part is we have idiots born and bred in the city running all of Canada which is hugely rural in nature and culture. If your so dumb as to want to ban electric fences because you are THAT ignorant if rural life, then you have no business serving in Parliament for a country that has a very rural heritage of fishing, hunting, and freedom. You can't do any of those anymore. The city idiots took it all away.

(note I live in an urban center with immigrants and have all my life. I really feel rural Canada are victims and can't blame them at all if they want to separate)

Edited June 9, 2011 by mikedavid00

[Shwa]

When an inner city NDP elite attempted to provide a private members bill to ban electric fences because it was cruel to animals(!) I had to sit back and think 'wow, these people do not understand country life' at all.

We have a house of commons comprised of elites from the cities who are bred out of our institution and have never worked a day in their life.

Sweeping generalization that simply is not true. No doubt you are a prime candidate for groupthink.

On the flip side, we have massive, massive country with a large portion of the population living in rural parts of Canada with almost no representation. We have homeowners in Northern Ontario, paying insane property taxes, and get no services. They are there to subsidize city dwellers.

No, it is a small portion of the population that is rural, 20% overall - smaller in some provinces like Ontario. So apparently it is you who does not "understand country life at all." This is proven by your subsequent statement that rural people "get no services" and are "there to subsidize city dwellers."

Seriously now, and I mean this with all due respect: you have no idea what you are talking about.

I think part of the problem is, as Canadians, we can not easily travel to remote parts of Canada like you can in the US (due to other gov't corruption issues that I won't get into regarding air fare).

I think a lot of Canadians who live in and around cities never actually see the smaller areas so live in a bubble.

"gov't corruption issues" I getchya.

The reason why Toronto is the center of the world is because it really is that way - over representation in the house of commons. Their issues (gun violence) becomes a Canada issue, and too many politicians are based out of the big cities.

StatsCan demographics:

Most Canadians live in urban areas. According to the 2006 Census, nearly 25 million people, more than 80% of Canada’s population, live in cities. The majority of urban dwellers (21.5 million people) live in one of the 33 census metropolitan areas (CMAs).

Six CMAs have a population of more than 1 million—Toronto, Montréal, Vancouver, Ottawa–Gatineau, Calgary and Edmonton. Combined, these six urban areas are home to 14.1 million people, or 45% of the population.

25% of Canada's population live in the Golden Horseshoe; almost 40% of the population resides in Ontario; more than 2/3's of the population reside in Ontario and Quebec.

This is NOT the case in the USA. Also, NY and California don't run the whole county. They're issues are not the issues of the entire US despite the fact that a third of their whole country resides in these 2 states (i think).

Irrelevant. The Americans already dealt with the separation issues 150 years ago.

I just feel it's time to break from the monarchy and choose something that would suit our needs better like an electoral college system or allowing the split of more provinces so there is better representation of different regions and cultures. We need to get away from this police state we live in and if that means portions of the country separating than I'm all for it. Our gov't is way, way too centralized right now and is simply too large. The worst part is we have idiots born and bred in the city running all of Canada which is hugely rural in nature and culture. If your so dumb as to want to ban electric fences because you are THAT ignorant if rural life, then you have no business serving in Parliament for a country that has a very rural heritage of fishing, hunting, and freedom. You can't do any of those anymore. The city idiots took it all away.

(note I live in an urban center with immigrants and have all my life. I really feel rural Canada are victims and can't blame them at all if they want to separate)

I think the only victim is you, of your own device and of your own delusions.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

For my two cents, I am in favour of "the right to choose" ! If that is what folks want, to separate, then that is what they want. I am in favour of Alberta separating so it would be a stretch for me to disagree with anyone else wanting to do the same. My reasons are simple, I don't like the political system as it stands. I would prefer to be part of Canada, but the nation does not want to treat my province in a manner that is acceptable to me. I guess its just me, but I believe that being an equal partner in Confederation means that we would have an equal say. Since we do not have an equal say, then I say we are not equal partners within Confederation. All that is needed to change my mind is for Canada to make the Senate a place of equal representation, where all provinces are represented in like numbers......equal.

This one little thing would bring at least a point of focus for striking some sort of balance in a modernized confederation. The nation has yet to come to terms with either the First Nations or Quebec in more than a century, so hoping for some sort of miracle or magic wand is not a really great place to making plans for Senate reform.

Until this nation, by which I do mean its citizens, wakes up and starts to address the reality of politics in Canada, then we are doomed to wander aimlessly in the dark. We would need to at least seek an enlightened society, we would need to pursue those things which bring us together. In other words, the things that most citizens agree on should become the focus of effort, an environment where things can actually get done. Instead of creating division based on partisan ideology where nothing gets done and society does not really benefit from political effort. In truth, this nation needs both a leader and functional vision.

So I will place the seed in the minds of folks on this forum and suggest that we need a national dream of some sort. When this nation has such an animal it has done well for a generation at a time. Is political reforms what constitutes our national dream?

[Smallc]

I would prefer to be part of Canada, but the nation does not want to treat my province in a manner that is acceptable to me.

Yes, Alberta has been so trampled on recently. Seriously, you're only the seat of the government right now. There are so many things wrong with the perpetual victim complex of some Albertans. Altering the Senate won't make you happy, trust me.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Smallc

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Yes, Alberta has been so trampled on recently. Seriously, you're only the seat of the government right now. There are so many things wrong with the perpetual victim complex of some Albertans. Altering the Senate won't make you happy, trust me.

Alberta is the seat of government.....really? Victim complex? Really? I wonder if you even know anybody from Alberta! We are not victims, never have been. Did the NEP screw us silly, sure it did. That is why Alberta is not Liberal friendly turf. Perhaps you do not understand that, perhaps you were not here. I was here and I understand what happened. The province and its people were screwed over by the feds. Billions of lost dollars, and who came to our help, nobody. Our entire economy depended on resource revenue, and everyone knew it. Sorry about that but it is in the national interest. Thank you very much.

Now when the auto sector was threatened, did you watch the country stand on its head and start spitting nickels? I did. Made me think about what happened after '29. The feds covered all the provinces debt except for Alberta's. Yeah they actually let us in essence go belly up, all the banks pulled out with one staying open in Calgary and the other in Edmonton, the rest ran off to Bay Street. So we are used to the special treatment. That is how we got to where we are, those are just the realities we experienced, and TRUST me, we don't feel like victims. We just don't like getting screwed, and we are not afraid to say so buddy.

Altering the Senate would make me happy, me and a lot of my fellow citizens. But you go right ahead and believe what you want. I am a big fan of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom period.

[Smallc]

So no recent things then? Got it. Also, if Alberta had large companies in danger of going under, I don't know how you could think that they would have been treated any differently than those in Alberta, especially by this government. That is a real victim mentality is you believe otherwise. I have absolutely zero sympathy for Alberta. You're doing better than pretty much anyone else. Stop complaining about being stepped on by Ottawa, something that hasn't happened in over 30 years (which also coincided with a world wide drop in oil prices, so it's much more fuzzy than you want to make out).

They're probably going to make some changes to the senate. If that makes you happy, I'll eat my hat.

[Michael Hardner]

The OP seems to have a lot of mistakes that were already pointed out.

Rural peoples are over-represented, they are subsidized in many ways by the city as well. Do we really need to refute that ?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

So no recent things then? Got it. Also, if Alberta had large companies in danger of going under, I don't know how you could think that they would have been treated any differently than those in Alberta, especially by this government. That is a real victim mentality is you believe otherwise. I have absolutely zero sympathy for Alberta. You're doing better than pretty much anyone else. Stop complaining about being stepped on by Ottawa, something that hasn't happened in over 30 years (which also coincided with a world wide drop in oil prices, so it's much more fuzzy than you want to make out).

They're probably going to make some changes to the senate. If that makes you happy, I'll eat my hat.

Hey fella if you cannot understand the basis for the argument you are simply beyond anybody's help. You can deny anything you want, I am just trying to tell you why we feel the way we do. You can eat your shorts for all I care! I need neither your blessing or your pity. In fact I don't even need, want or desire your help, or the help of the federal government.

Alberta IS doing better than most. Get over it. In fact we are going to do much better. There will 3 million bpd production within the next five years, just out of the oil sands. Our entire provincial budget will be covered with royalty income from our resource development. This province is far from needing the nation to do anything for us, we can and shall do it for ourselves. That is why we seek the reforms and changes that we do, because we actually want to look after ourselves instead of having a nanny state do it for us.

Here is a prediction for you anti-Alberta folks. Gives us ten years, and we will do away with provincial income taxes at both the personal and business ends of the scale. Just because we can, the province will undertake a sales tax, bringing in more revenue. The sales tax will fund healthcare and education. The province will opt out of, EI, CPP, and everything else under federal fiscal computations. At that point we won't even need to separate, we will have done it all without the help of anyone else.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The OP seems to have a lot of mistakes that were already pointed out.

Rural peoples are over-represented, they are subsidized in many ways by the city as well. Do we really need to refute that ?

No.

[Molly]

Small c, you are almost always the first in to pooh-pooh any sense that federal authourity is just a tad concentrated in or near the GTA, but...

Just a few days after the election was called, my sister and I did a little rambling around, wandered some back roads to see sights, looking for a non-400 route between Kingston-ish over to the Georgian Bay area (day-tripping). In killing that portion of an afternoon, we drove past campaign signs for Julian Fantino, Peter Kent, Peter Van Loan, Bev Oda, Kelly Leach (and Helena Guergis), Tony Clement, and Jim Flaherty his very self....that I can remember off the top of my head.

The seat of government isn't in Alberta, friend.

[cybercoma]

No, it is a small portion of the population that is rural, 20% overall - smaller in some provinces like Ontario. So apparently it is you who does not "understand country life at all." This is proven by your subsequent statement that rural people "get no services" and are "there to subsidize city dwellers."

I just wanted to point out, as well, that life in rural areas is much different today than it was during the first half of the 20th century as well. While people then were farming and living off the land, today rural life seems to be the same as urban life, except with more space for leisure time. Many people live in rural areas and commute to an urban centre for their jobs. Of course, some people still farm and live off the land completely or keep to their farming communities, as well as the movement towards "buy local", which means many might be moving back towards a more traditional rural life. Nevertheless, the rural/urban divide is not as clear today as it was many years ago. So, it's fair to say that although 20% of the population is in rural areas, much less than that actually live rural lives.

[Tilter]

By the results of the survey most people think that a Province (or district) has the right to become a separate entity. Say, if Quebec voted to go their own way, Montreal & West Quebec area would then be able to split from the new entity and become a province of Canada.

Do it.

There weren't enough questions in the survey--- it should have included a question about whether or not the voting districts should also have a consideration of physical size and population.

When you look at PEI and it's over-representation in both houses and then the North and it's under-representation you can get an idea of the frustration of the under-represented voter in those areas. Most MPs in PEI can walk their districts in a day or 2--- in the Prairies a month or 2 and in the north it would take an MP a lifetime of walking to cover his.

[Smallc]

The seat of government isn't in Alberta, friend.

So Stephen Harper and a large portion of the cabinet isn't from Alberta then? The Conservative doesn't have significantly roots in Alberta? As for federal authority being concentrated in the GTA, what do you expect? 1/6 of the population lives there. I don't believe that with what has happened in the last 25 years or so, that western alienation even has a purpose.

[Shwa]

Here is a prediction for you anti-Alberta folks. Gives us ten years, and we will do away with provincial income taxes at both the personal and business ends of the scale. Just because we can, the province will undertake a sales tax, bringing in more revenue. The sales tax will fund healthcare and education. The province will opt out of, EI, CPP, and everything else under federal fiscal computations. At that point we won't even need to separate, we will have done it all without the help of anyone else.

I am not anti-Alberta, just anti-Alberta Separatiste. My predictions will be that some whiney Albertans will still be crying in their beer over NEP 10 years from now. Nothing we can do for that. But I love the idea of a rich Alberta, shelling out all that transfer money to support retired Ontarians, BC hippies and QC artistes.

Once you reach Utopia, let me know and I'll come out for my slice.

[nittanylionstorm07]

It's going to be absolutely hilarious when Alberta runs out of oil and Ontario and Quebec will have to start subsidizing Alberta.

Absolutely hilarious.

[Molly]

So Stephen Harper and a large portion of the cabinet isn't from Alberta then? The Conservative doesn't have significantly roots in Alberta? As for federal authority being concentrated in the GTA, what do you expect? 1/6 of the population lives there. I don't believe that with what has happened in the last 25 years or so, that western alienation even has a purpose.

Except, except... the ones I listed are not in the GTA. They are clustered in the well-to-do burbs to the north and east of the GTA. They aren't really even in the golden horseshoe. The cabinet representation for the GTA and golden horseshoe are in addition to those ridings we happened to drive through that afternoon! (We hit Lisa Raitt and Diane Finley signs the next day, among others, and still thoroughly avoided all city or 400-series driving.)

And Alberta... Yep, out of 27 seats they have Harper, Ablonczy, Ambrose, Kenny... Menzies... Any others?

I say again, Alberta isn't the seat of government.

[Evening Star]

Except, except... the ones I listed are not in the GTA. They are clustered in the well-to-do burbs to the north and east of the GTA. They aren't really even in the golden horseshoe. The cabinet representation for the GTA and golden horseshoe are in addition to those ridings we happened to drive through that afternoon! (We hit Lisa Raitt and Diane Finley signs the next day, among others, and still thoroughly avoided all city or 400-series driving.)

And Alberta... Yep, out of 27 seats they have Harper, Ablonczy, Ambrose, Kenny... Menzies... Any others?

I say again, Alberta isn't the seat of government.

But, numbers aside, do you think AB is being exploited or oppressed by the federation?

[Wild Bill]

25% of Canada's population live in the Golden Horseshoe; almost 40% of the population resides in Ontario; more than 2/3's of the population reside in Ontario and Quebec.

Okay, you shot Mike down. Now, where does your argument leave us?

It would appear that the consequence of your argument is that since your side is in the majority then 20% of Canadians, rural or whatever, should just shut up, bend over and take it without complaining!

Man, if you ran a club you'd have the entire membership quitting within 6 months! Members don't meekly obey according to their percentage of the group's makeup. If it's bad and no fun for THEM then they will want to leave!

Where is it written that patriotism involves being a martyr to an indifferent and mostly ignorant majority?

Edited June 9, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Smallc]

I say again, Alberta isn't the seat of government.

And I say that isn't correct. The most important minister comes from there. Yes, the GGH and the 905 get a great many ministerial positions, but that's because most of the population lives there. Harper though, is from Albeta. The West is in. It needs to stop whining (note that I'm a westerner). To expect Ontario to be ignored or weakened given their population and the growth of that population is unreasonable.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Smallc

[Smallc]

It would appear that the consequence of your argument is that since your side is in the majority then 20% of Canadians, rural or whatever, should just shut up, bend over and take it without complaining!

No, they should just stop being selfish and unreasonable (note also that I'm a rural westerner).

[Saipan]

Are you open to seperation?

Why not? Canada promotes, and militaily help, it in all other (small) countries.

And btw, If province is separable so are cities, towns, villages.... or a region/townships.

[Molly]

But, numbers aside, do you think AB is being exploited or oppressed by the federation?

There is a question of tense to that question.

The history of the west is one of casual exploitation by 'central' Canada, and Alberta was sca-rewed by the NEP and associated policies to a degree that very few outside the oil patch can really imagine. It would have been a horror even if it had not been part of an ongoing, long-term pattern, but it was part of such a pattern, both in terms of overall Canadian conduct wrt the west, and the very open contempt/neglect routinely offered by that particular PM. (Trudeau is the reason the Liberal party was erased in the west. NEP, Salmon Arm salute, "Why should I sell your grain?"....the anger remains.)

When you've been that badly burned in the past, you'd have to be a gold-plated idiot to take anyone's neglectful assurance that it won't or can't happen again, because it could and it might. I agree that Alberta tends to whine over it wa-ay too much, and the story has entered the realm of myth, but I also hear my neighbours in Ontario complaining about the price of fuel and how there should be a two price system, that Alberta is too rich by half and that it's not fair..... that it's Canada's oil, not Alberta's... When I hear the self-serving delusion that Eastern Canada generously served western Canada by building a railroad and financing the oil industry.... achhh! Where does one even start in challenging it?

So, Are they being oppressed this very minute? No. Should Alberta assume that it is no longer vulnerable, or that Canada is too 'nice' to ever do it again? Not on your life. That prickly vigilance is a hard-learned behaviour/ the trust was rightly, and only reluctantly set aside.

[nittanylionstorm07]

There is a question of tense to that question.

The history of the west is one of casual exploitation by 'central' Canada, and Alberta was sca-rewed by the NEP and associated policies to a degree that very few outside the oil patch can really imagine. It would have been a horror even if it had not been part of an ongoing, long-term pattern, but it was part of such a pattern, both in terms of overall Canadian conduct wrt the west, and the very open contempt/neglect routinely offered by that particular PM. (Trudeau is the reason the Liberal party was erased in the west. NEP, Salmon Arm salute, "Why should I sell your grain?"....the anger remains.)

When you've been that badly burned in the past, you'd have to be a gold-plated idiot to take anyone's neglectful assurance that it won't or can't happen again, because it could and it might. I agree that Alberta tends to whine over it wa-ay too much, and the story has entered the realm of myth, but I also hear my neighbours in Ontario complaining about the price of fuel and how there should be a two price system, that Alberta is too rich by half and that it's not fair..... that it's Canada's oil, not Alberta's... When I hear the self-serving delusion that Eastern Canada generously served western Canada by building a railroad and financing the oil industry.... achhh! Where does one even start in challenging it?

So, Are they being oppressed this very minute? No. Should Alberta assume that it is no longer vulnerable, or that Canada is too 'nice' to ever do it again? Not on your life. That prickly vigilance is a hard-learned behaviour/ the trust was rightly, and only reluctantly set aside.

Here's the problem, though: If Alberta continues to whine so much to the point that they do in fact managed to keep the vast majority of wealth from the oil, they are burning bridges between them and Ontario/Quebec.

Which, in the short term, I'm sure Alberta would be quite happy to do. Here's the problem: when Alberta runs out of oil, where do they turn? If they've burnt the bridges to the people who could support them, they've risked having the situation turned upside down on them,

[Evening Star]

"Why should I sell your grain?"....

This was a rhetorical question that he proceeded to actually answer, right? (Seems so: http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0011049 )

And the Liberals haven't done so great in the West since 1957 so I don't know if PET was the reason, though he probably helped.

Also, didn't Lougheed actually choose to sign on to the NEP?

[Dave_ON]

Alberta IS doing better than most. Get over it. In fact we are going to do much better. There will 3 million bpd production within the next five years, just out of the oil sands. Our entire provincial budget will be covered with royalty income from our resource development.

This is the primary reason TROC takes issue with Albertans, in one breath they complain about how they've always been treated like crap, and in the second breath they brag about how superior they are to TROC. It's kind of poor form and makes it hard to sympathize with what happened during the NEP.

This province is far from needing the nation to do anything for us

Except a workforce that is derived from every region in the Canada, mostly the East, which you're so fond of reminding, how much better then them you are.

we can and shall do it for ourselves.

Just not a locally and self sustained work force.

That is why we seek the reforms and changes that we do, because we actually want to look after ourselves instead of having a nanny state do it for us.

So do all regions, it's not just Alberta that has been overpowered by ON and Quebec, its the Atlantic, Alberta and all the western provinces. I agree, we need to reform the senate, as it currently stands it's not functioning as intended. However, I think smallc is correct, senate reform will not be sufficient to make the dissenting Albertans happy. They see the power Ontario has, based on population and a robust economy and want that power too. Unfortunately oil money can't buy that kind of power.

Here is a prediction for you anti-Alberta folks. Gives us ten years, and we will do away with provincial income taxes at both the personal and business ends of the scale. Just because we can, the province will undertake a sales tax, bringing in more revenue. The sales tax will fund healthcare and education. The province will opt out of, EI, CPP, and everything else under federal fiscal computations. At that point we won't even need to separate, we will have done it all without the help of anyone else.

I'd say you're an Anti-anything but Albertan. Again it's hard to want to listen to someone who's constantly touting how superior they are to you.

Edited June 9, 2011 by Dave_ON