The Truth about the NEP

[kitt]

Trudeau brought in the NEP to give Canadians a made in Canada price for their oil and to help Canadian business explore and profit from the oil in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

http://www.albertasource.ca/petroleum/industry/issues_government_nep.html

Things did not work out as intended when Trudeau and Lougheed signed the National Energy Program (NEP) in October 1980. OPEC was the driver behind the spike in the oil prices that triggered the NEP but excess oil in North Sea, Alaska, Mexico, and else­where brought prices way down and that is what caused the oil companies to leave Alberta for other fields.

The NEP intention was to provide good policy for Canadians and Canadian business that was not good for the oil industry or the west. Because the oil companies refused to drill unless they received the profit with a pittance to Canadians. And so it remains today with the fat US Oil filling their pockets and shipping our bitman and jobs south. And nobody will stand up for Canada and Alberta. Especially not Conservatives. They are quite happy to be the drawers of wood for Big Oil. Canada is big enough that we can manufactur our own gas and oil with Canadian companies. Harper doesn't have the courage to stand up to Big Oil. Stelmach is a wimp.

It is time that Alberta pundits stop lying about the NEP and using it as a stick against Liberals.

[bush_cheney2004]

And so it remains today with the fat US Oil filling their pockets and shipping our bitman and jobs south. And nobody will stand up for Canada and Alberta. Especially not Conservatives....

Correct...without the American and other foreign capital investment, pipeline transport, refining capacity, and huge market, there would never have been any such thing.

....Should five per cent appear too small,

Be thankful we don't take it all.

Edited June 6, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[August1991]

Trudeau brought in the NEP to give Canadians a made in Canada price for their oil and to help Canadian business explore and profit from the oil in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

...

It is time that Alberta pundits stop lying about the NEP and using it as a stick against Liberals.

You want a Made in Canada price?

I frankly think that all Canadians should pay the world price for our resources. Why waste at home at a cheap price what we can sell abroad for more?

Kitt, you would force Sydney Crosby to play for the St. John's Maple Leafs, and sell Albertan oil at 20 cents a litre across the country.

Edited June 6, 2011 by August1991

[kitt]

bush_cheney2004 - maybe now but not back then which is what the NEP was suppose to address - governments financing Canadian companies to produce and refine out own oil. As the years have gone by, US companies have gotten bigger and bigger drilling Canadian oil and shipping it south for refining.

August1991 - in 1980 one price for Canadians and one price for the rest was what the NEP was about. You didn't read the link and find out the truth did you.

The Nep was a bad policy but the part about financing and building up Canadian oil companies and refineries was brilliant. Opportunity lost.

But if things had been different and Canada had build up its OWN oil company business with the NEP, Canada would have more clout instead of just handing it all over to Big Oil, except for 5%.

And without the Sydney Crosby's the US wouldn't have much of a national hockey league.... like our oil.

[bush_cheney2004]

bush_cheney2004 - maybe now but not back then which is what the NEP was suppose to address - governments financing Canadian companies to produce and refine out own oil. As the years have gone by, US companies have gotten bigger and bigger drilling Canadian oil and shipping it south for refining.

But it never would have happened anyway...Canada lacked the capital...and still does in many instances. Same thing happens for the beef industry and lack of slaughterhouse capacity. Pretending to run with the big dogs is a poor substitute.

The Americans took a chance on Alberta, sinking lots of private capital into tar sands projects. Trudeau and his NEP tried to screw them instead.

[kitt]

In the 1980 the feds had sunk billions into the Cold Lake tar sands and the oil industry was young and Canadian companies had a chance. In order to play with the big boys, governments must back up their own. The NEP was going to back Canadian companies. Petro Canada was started and became very successful. Canada had a golden opportunity but its all US now.

[Shwa]

But it never would have happened anyway...Canada lacked the capital...and still does in many instances. Same thing happens for the beef industry and lack of slaughterhouse capacity. Pretending to run with the big dogs is a poor substitute.

The Americans took a chance on Alberta, sinking lots of private capital into tar sands projects. Trudeau and his NEP tried to screw them instead.

Canada lacks the capital? I hardly think so. The point is that there is no need for capital for refineries or slaughterhouses when your biggest trading partner has all that covered and only needs the raw material. Should it come to the point where we needed to make capital investments for the refinement of raw materials, it would likely be done easily enough.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada lacks the capital? I hardly think so. The point is that there is no need for capital for refineries or slaughterhouses when your biggest trading partner has all that covered and only needs the raw material. Should it come to the point where we needed to make capital investments for the refinement of raw materials, it would likely be done easily enough.

But it isn't easily done, and wasn't easily done. All Canada had to offer was the "raw material" and labor. Without the other essential investment, infrastructure, and market, the tar sands would never have developed at such a pace. Case in point, during the throne speech, the GG whined about Dief's dream of a highway system yet to be built!

[Shwa]

But it isn't easily done, and wasn't easily done. All Canada had to offer was the "raw material" and labor. Without the other essential investment, infrastructure, and market, the tar sands would never have developed at such a pace. Case in point, during the throne speech, the GG whined about Dief's dream of a highway system yet to be built!

"...at such a pace..."

That doesn't mean that the capital isn't there nowadays. Of course it takes time to build investment, infrastructure, etc. But it can be easily done IF the will is there AND there is a requirement. At this point, there are few requirements when the current process works so well. In fact, I would say the capital investments, not including bailouts, almost enforce the status quo.

And we have our highway system.

[Keepitsimple]

Things did not work out as intended when Trudeau and Lougheed signed the National Energy Program (NEP) in October 1980.

You got that right! Rationalize all you want.....the Economists had it right - as stated in the article:

The consensus of economists is that the NEP was not economic policy, it was a political document. . . . The energy policies hit the petroleum industry by the dis­criminatory measures that discouraged the investment of foreign capital; by the federal-provincial squabbles over revenue that squeezed the industry's revenues; and by the "Canadianization" measures which wound up bankrupting the Canadian-owned firms they were intended to help.

It really doesn't matter what Mr. Trudeau's intentions were - although his socialistic tendencies seem to indicate that his policy was not as altruistic as you think. The fact is that it was a miserable and damaging failure and when an entire generation of Westerners are made to feel abandoned, the Liberal Party has rightly continued to pay the price. Much the same - but perhaps to a slightly lesser degree - is Bob Rae's leadership of the Ontario NDP and the disastrous level of debt that he ran up. He too had excuses but his policies exacerbated an already tenuous economy.

You cannot "undo" the NEP debacle. Current Liberals have not done much, if anything to express their support for the oil industry.

Nice try though.

[bush_cheney2004]

"...at such a pace..."

Is there another that the public is unaware of?

That doesn't mean that the capital isn't there nowadays. Of course it takes time to build investment, infrastructure, etc. But it can be easily done IF the will is there AND there is a requirement. At this point, there are few requirements when the current process works so well. In fact, I would say the capital investments, not including bailouts, almost enforce the status quo.

And if pigs had wings they could fly. Anytime I see yet another post about the "US" exploiting tar sands development I am going to point out the economic obvious. It wasn't the Americans who tried to screw Alberta....far from it.

And we have our highway system.

But not from sea to shining sea to shining sea....Dief weeps.

[jbg]

The NEP intention was to provide good policy for Canadians and Canadian business that was not good for the oil industry or the west. Because the oil companies refused to drill unless they received the profit with a pittance to Canadians. And so it remains today with the fat US Oil filling their pockets and shipping our bitman and jobs south. And nobody will stand up for Canada and Alberta. Especially not Conservatives. They are quite happy to be the drawers of wood for Big Oil. Canada is big enough that we can manufactur our own gas and oil with Canadian companies. Harper doesn't have the courage to stand up to Big Oil. Stelmach is a wimp.

It is time that Alberta pundits stop lying about the NEP and using it as a stick against Liberals.

Unless Stelmach and Harper are going to do their own exploration they must rely on "big oil". It happens that the era of big oil has not been a bad one for consumers.

Trudeau brought in the NEP to give Canadians a made in Canada price for their oil and to help Canadian business explore and profit from the oil in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

http://www.albertasource.ca/petroleum/industry/issues_government_nep.html

Things did not work out as intended when Trudeau and Lougheed signed the National Energy Program (NEP) in October 1980. OPEC was the driver behind the spike in the oil prices that triggered the NEP but excess oil in North Sea, Alaska, Mexico, and else­where brought prices way down and that is what caused the oil companies to leave Alberta for other fields.

bush_cheney2004 - maybe now but not back then which is what the NEP was suppose to address - governments financing Canadian companies to produce and refine out own oil. As the years have gone by, US companies have gotten bigger and bigger drilling Canadian oil and shipping it south for refining.

August1991 - in 1980 one price for Canadians and one price for the rest was what the NEP was about. You didn't read the link and find out the truth did you.

The Nep was a bad policy but the part about financing and building up Canadian oil companies and refineries was brilliant. Opportunity lost.

But if things had been different and Canada had build up its OWN oil company business with the NEP, Canada would have more clout instead of just handing it all over to Big Oil, except for 5%.

And without the Sydney Crosby's the US wouldn't have much of a national hockey league.... like our oil.

The only way to have a "made-in-Canada" price for oil or any commodity is to have a totalitarian, closed system similar to North Korea's "juche". It so happens that down the road that will cause one of the world's great humanitarian crisis ever.

Put simply, many oil-producing countries have subsidized internal prices. Thus, gasoline costs under $0.25 per liter in places such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Indonesia. Attempts to raise those prices in order to curb waste lead to rioting. There is no political capital in setting a "reasonable" price. Once one is dictating prices it will either be set too low or too high. There's no way to get it right.

Edited June 6, 2011 by jbg

[Molly]

Trudeau brought in the NEP to give Canadians a made in Canada price for their oil and to help Canadian business explore and profit from the oil in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

http://www.albertasource.ca/petroleum/industry/issues_government_nep.html....

It is time that Alberta pundits stop lying about the NEP and using it as a stick against Liberals.

From that link: "The federal government wanted to increase the control Canadians had of the oil industry and provide some relief to Eastern Canada in the price of oil and gas."-- in other words, butt into a provincial-jurisdiction resource industry, abscond with the profit, and give it to the East.

Where's the lie?

It was not a new strategy-- the colonial attitude to the newer provinces had existed for longer than those provinces had, and Trudeau was more guilty of dismissing and ignoring them than most. NEP was just the step too far.

[Shwa]

Is there another that the public is unaware of?

Moving a hockey team from the US to Canada, with all the requisite infrastructure, resources AND capital appears to be a fairly quick process.

And if pigs had wings they could fly. Anytime I see yet another post about the "US" exploiting tar sands development I am going to point out the economic obvious. It wasn't the Americans who tried to screw Alberta....far from it.

WTF are you talking about and furthermore WTF cares?

But not from sea to shining sea to shining sea....Dief weeps.

The Trans-Canada Highway goes from shining sea to shining sea. No one is weeping over a link to the Arctic, I assure you. Unless you are a big fan of Ice Road Truckers in which case no one else is weeping.

[bush_cheney2004]

Moving a hockey team from the US to Canada, with all the requisite infrastructure, resources AND capital appears to be a fairly quick process.

To use your astute analysis....when it comes to hockey, WTF cares?

WTF are you talking about and furthermore WTF cares?

Member kitt seems to care.

The Trans-Canada Highway goes from shining sea to shining sea. No one is weeping over a link to the Arctic, I assure you. Unless you are a big fan of Ice Road Truckers in which case no one else is weeping.

Take it up with Diefenbaker....it wasn't my throne speech.

[Shwa]

To use your astute analysis....when it comes to hockey, WTF cares?

You asked for an example, I gave you one.

Member kitt seems to care.

I question the sincerity of such caring.

Take it up with Diefenbaker....it wasn't my throne speech.

I don't care either.

[bush_cheney2004]

You asked for an example, I gave you one.

Yes, you gave me an example of a professional sports league dominated by still more American capital, marketing, and distribution.

I question the sincerity of such caring.

Irrelevant.

I don't care either.

What do you care about...hockey?

[Shwa]

Yes, you gave me an example of a professional sports league dominated by still more American capital, marketing, and distribution.

But the issue wasn't one of American dominance capital, marketing and distribution, it was about capital and the speed of which it operates in Canada. I gave an example of which plenty of people care. You can check this out when the Bruins next play at the TD (Toronto Dominion) Garden in Boston.

Irrelevant.

But you care enough right? That is completely relevant and I respect that in a non-respectful way. I understand your sore feelings perfectly.

What do you care about...hockey?

I care about all kinds of things, thanks for asking.

[bush_cheney2004]

But the issue wasn't one of American dominance capital, marketing and distribution, it was about capital and the speed of which it operates in Canada. I gave an example of which plenty of people care. You can check this out when the Bruins next play at the TD (Toronto Dominion) Garden in Boston.

Oh goody....Canada has some capital....now. That's cute! Wanna buy another railroad?

But you care enough right? That is completely relevant and I respect that in a non-respectful way. I understand your sore feelings perfectly.

No, I think you resent being aptly compared to a 1950's Saudi Arabia.

I care about all kinds of things, thanks for asking.

Yep...that would include American capital.

[fellowtraveller]

The Americans took a chance on Alberta, sinking lots of private capital into tar sands projects.

Not that much really.

The first big project was GCOS(now called Suncor) in the 1960s, built with Canuckbucks mostly.

The biggest play was in the mid 70s with Syncrude, with major investment partners the Governments of Alberta, Ontario and Canada, and private sectors partners including Esso/Exxon. The private sector investors, those bold Americans, would not invest without govt cash partners and absolute ironclad guarantees on both contruction and operation. They literally cpould not lose, and dod not lose.

Syncrude was built by Bechtel Corp(American of course) and did such a hideous and horrifically f**ked up job in a financial sense that they have never done much of anything in Canada since. Bad move on their part, they have lost out on the many many billions since buit and much more to come.

[fellowtraveller]

It is time that Alberta pundits stop lying about the NEP and using it as a stick against Liberals.

It is rare indeed to see or hear anything about the NEP in Alberta, it was a long time ago.

Truth be told, nobody much talks about the Liberals either.

It is likely because all thses events happened so long ago, nobody cares anymore.

Trudeau is somebody the old people knew, and economic refugees from elsewhere worship the guy.

If Albertans need to get a hate on for the Liberals(and why bother, really?) they just need to review Chretiens term.

[bush_cheney2004]

Not that much really.

Yes...that much really. Engineering, transport, distribution, refining, and market.

The first big project was GCOS(now called Suncor) in the 1960s, built with Canuckbucks mostly.

Mostly is not totally.

The biggest play was in the mid 70s with Syncrude, with major investment partners the Governments of Alberta, Ontario and Canada, and private sectors partners including Esso/Exxon. The private sector investors, those bold Americans, would not invest without govt cash partners and absolute ironclad guarantees on both contruction and operation. They literally cpould not lose, and dod not lose.

Why should they lose? Canada was on a foreign investment tear.

Syncrude was built by Bechtel Corp(American of course) and did such a hideous and horrifically f**ked up job in a financial sense that they have never done much of anything in Canada since. Bad move on their part, they have lost out on the many many billions since buit and much more to come.

Bechtel is just one player....Exxon/Mobil is another:

Why is an American oil company, the biggest in the world, with annual revenue of $390 billion, calling the shots at Canada's biggest oil-sands producer? Syncrude, founded in 1964, when commercialization of the oil sands wasn't economically viable, epitomizes the tangled web of partnerships and deals that is Alberta's energy sector. The company has seven partners, but Syncrude's biggest shareholders are a pair of Calgary-based operators, Canadian Oil Sands Trust and Imperial Oil Ltd., which together own a 61.7% stake. It's through its controlling position in Imperial that Exxon has become master at Syncrude.

[fellowtraveller]

Why should they lose? Canada was on a foreign investment tear.

That had nothing to do with it, the fear was that the technology was unproven on that scale. In fact, Syncrude has made very major changes to how it does things at least twice.

Bechtel is just one player....Exxon/Mobil is another:

You don't really know anything , do you? Bechtel was a construction contractor not an oil company, they f**kec up so badly they have never been back.

Syncrude, founded in 1964

wrong. Syncrude was built in the mid 70s. GCOS(GReat Canadian Oil Sands, now Suncor)was built in the 60s.

the tangled web of partnerships and deals that is Alberta's energy sector.

what is your point? MOst if not all the developments in the oil sands are joint ventures, they are massive projects on any scale and companies like to spead risk.

I would venture that nearly every large petro company in the world- coporate and state- has some investment here.

[bush_cheney2004]

That had nothing to do with it, the fear was that the technology was unproven on that scale. In fact, Syncrude has made very major changes to how it does things at least twice.

It has everything to do with it. Foreign investors took that risk.

You don't really know anything , do you? Bechtel was a construction contractor not an oil company, they f**kec up so badly they have never been back.

So what....your own government's NEP really "f**kec" up!

wrong. Syncrude was built in the mid 70s. GCOS(GReat Canadian Oil Sands, now Suncor)was built in the 60s.

I will take Time's word over yours.

what is your point? MOst if not all the developments in the oil sands are joint ventures, they are massive projects on any scale and companies like to spead risk.

My point is that the Americans and other foreign investment made the whole venture far more viable than Canada/Alberta going it alone. That's worth something in the way of a return on investment, not more NEPesque nonsense.

[RNG]

Then Time is wrong. I was a salesman in the oilpatch at the time, calling on GCOS and Syncrude. Sorry you believe your local propaganda.