Can "a Jewish state" be a democracy?

[bud]

Your government(s) also "support" the Americans, who provide direct aid to the Israeli "regime". No other country is so closely integrated to the US economy. Does that "bother" you too?

unlike you, there are people who are not bothered with admitting faults of their own government. our government's faults and mistakes does not cancel out the u.s. government's faults and mistakes which effect the whole world. you seem to have troubles understanding that.

[Guest American Woman]

Even the jews in this thread can't quite seem to agree with each other. Interesting.

Do find it interesting when Christians don't quite seem to agree with each other in threads as well? Or equally interesting when atheists can't quite seem to agree with each other? Democrats? Republicans? Liberals? Conservatives? Etc.? Or do you just expect Jews to always be in agreement?

[bud]

Then, if negotiations are impossible, say so...I'm old enough to remember when Israeli leaders like Golda Meir said that there was no such thing as a Palestinian...stop the charade, and just build the walled fortress. Netanyahu is not interested in a peaceful resolution, so stop pretending. The Apartheid Government of South Africa kept using the excuse of fighting communism to keep their regime going; the difference today is that most of the West is being guilt-tripped into supporting an Israeli Government that is following a determined policy of ethnic cleansing.

with or without the israeli government's cooperation, a palestinian state will be formed.

[bush_cheney2004]

Do find it interesting when Christians don't quite seem to agree with each other in threads as well? Or equally interesting when atheists can't quite seem to agree with each other? Democrats? Republicans? Liberals? Conservatives? Etc.? Or do you just expect Jews to always be in agreement?

Yes...very curious indeed....this monolithic way of thinking. Do all Canadian Catholics agree with each other? Or does this peculiar expectation only apply to.....Jews. That must be it....

[bush_cheney2004]

unlike you, there are people who are not bothered with admitting faults of their own government. our government's faults and mistakes does not cancel out the u.s. government's faults and mistakes which effect the whole world. you seem to have troubles understanding that.

I have no trouble at all, reveling in the opportunity to point out your own cognitive dissonance. Why can't you convince your province or nation to sanction / boycott the evil United States for it's "support of Israeli apartheid". But wait...we already know the answer to that question. Never mind.

[bush_cheney2004]

with or without the israeli government's cooperation, a palestinian state will be formed.

Again...so what is taking so long? Why has it not happened yet with the spirit and will of do-gooders like yourself?

[bud]

Again...so what is taking so long? Why has it not happened yet with the spirit and will of do-gooders like yourself?

because those who control israel were given the opportunity to do the right thing and they failed to do so. now it's time to move forward without israel.

[bush_cheney2004]

because those who control israel were given the opportunity to do the right thing and they failed to do so. now it's time to move forward without israel.

Huh? You mean they've neen waiting for the Dark Side? So essentially, you are saying Palestinians only have themselves to blame. On this...we agree!

[Bob]

Do find it interesting when Christians don't quite seem to agree with each other in threads as well? Or equally interesting when atheists can't quite seem to agree with each other? Democrats? Republicans? Liberals? Conservatives? Etc.? Or do you just expect Jews to always be in agreement?

Aside from me not knowing what GostHacked was referring to regarding this "disagreement between the Jews", I didn't want to be the one to point out this ridiculous and seemingly prejudiced statement of his. I knew someone would point it out, eventually.

I guess he thinks we all take marching orders from Central Zionist Command (CZC).

[WIP]

Your recollection never existed....that's why the Americans invented Google and the Internet...just for you. If you use these gifts to their full potential, you may find out what really happened as a practical matter....even before Reagan (i.e. Carter).

All it took was a quick google search to discover that Reagan had to have a veto overridden by Congress to abandon his support of apartheid South Africa. You got caught trying to reinvent history on behalf of your hero: Ronnie Reagan again, and now I suppose you're going to shovel more crap to try to divert attention away from your false claim.

[Rue]

Yes...very curious indeed....this monolithic way of thinking. Do all Canadian Catholics agree with each other? Or does this peculiar expectation only apply to.....Jews. That must be it....

ahah. you and Yankee Woman must be Jews. We think the same on this. Ahah. You 2 admit you eat bagels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rue]

unlike you, there are people who are not bothered with admitting faults of their own government.

Yes just not the governments of Sudan, Libya, Egypt, the Gaza, The West Bank, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Iran or any other country you selectively ignore right Bud.

Give it a rest with the lecture. Your selectivity as to whose government you criticize and when speaks for itself.

[Rue]

Why the continuing need for personal insults?

The crack about noses was not an insult directed at you. It was a snide comment directed at what I preceived to be an anti-semetic remark about the Jews on this board so I was satirizing it.

It had nothing to do with insulting you and everything to do with spitting at the stereoptypes some trot out about Jews.

Are you that insecure you read everything I say as an attack?

Edited June 26, 2011 by Rue

[Rue]

I dunno... seems like a religion to me.

Belief a bogus diety : CHECK!

False Prophet : CHECK!

Radical and violent behavior : CHECK!

Treat women and homosexuals like shit : CHECK!

Retarded and prudish sexual repression : CHECK!

Yup! Its a religion! Pretty much the same as the other ones, just a century or so behind.

I would suggest an entity canbe both a corporation and religion, just one or the other. The Bachian theses assumes all religions are organized money making institutions and I suppose it is fact many are incorporated or have structures no different then corporations.

I am sure Islam is a religion. I think its safe to say any organization that has people with beards and a leader with a beard and rampant constipation and a lack of humour is religious in nature.

Therefore Islam, Christianity and Judaism using that criteria are religions.

You may have to explain to JBG I am not being insulting simply being satirical.

Edited June 26, 2011 by Rue

[jbg]

That was another of the arguments used to support apartheid. I won't go in to the issues of continued economic colonization and how that affected Black Africa after the end of colonialism....

Why don't you? Because the merits of the argument cut against you. How are the common people better off being ruled by a black thug rather than a white thug like Peter Botha or Ian Smith?

but re: Israel, I'm not pretending to know whether peaceful resolutions are possible in the Middle East, but when I see Israeli troops shooting down unarmed demonstrators in the Golan, I'm thinking that there is not enough difference between Israel and its Arab neighbours for me to jump in on Israel's side...and the fact that our Government has taken the position of unqualified support for Israel is what really bothers me.

What are the facts about these shootings of unarmed demonstrators? Could it perhaps be that they were attempting what amounted to an unarmed invasion of Israel? If the Arabs send in 200,000 "unarmed" troops does Israel need to surrender Tel Aviv?

[jbg]

The crack about noses was not an insult directed at you. It was a snide comment directed at what I preceived to be an anti-semetic remark about the Jews on this board so I was satirizing it.

It had nothing to do with insulting you and everything to do with spitting at the stereoptypes some trot out about Jews.

Are you that insecure you read everything I say as an attack?

The response was to "(s)orry I don't walk and talk like Bob or JBG".

[Bob]

Why don't you? Because the merits of the argument cut against you. How are the common people better off being ruled by a black thug rather than a white thug like Peter Botha or Ian Smith?

What are the facts about these shootings of unarmed demonstrators? Could it perhaps be that they were attempting what amounted to an unarmed invasion of Israel? If the Arabs send in 200,000 "unarmed" troops does Israel need to surrender Tel Aviv?

I find WIP's post unworthy of response. To characterize the hostilities at the Golan as "Israeli troops shooting down unarmed demonstrators in the Golan", and then to directly draw moral equivalence between us and the Arabs tell us everything we need to know about him. Nevermind the fact that this is a border with a country that we are still officially at war with, and a country that regularly supplies arms and other support to terrorists that murder us, nevermind the fact that this angry mob was throwing stones at our soldiers, nevermind the fact that they were cutting through the fence, nevermind the fact that they were being paid by Bashar al-Assad to do so (with bonuses going to Shahids who would be injured or killed), nevermind that they were repeatedly warned by the IDF to stop their advancing into our territory, nevermind the fact that they were crossing into our land illegally, and nevermind that the IDF shot were instructed not to shoot to kill (unfortunately) - but to shoot at their limbs.

No, forget all those facts and simply characterize this angry mob as "unarmed protesters" brutally suppressed by a cruel and malicious IDF whose conduct is indistinguishable from the terrorists. Yes, the IDF is the moral equivalent of Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al-Qaeda, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, and all the other terrorist vermin out there. And beyond that, Israeli society is the moral equivalent of the Arabs/Muslims. Nothing superior about us, whatsoever. Forget about our democratic values and institutions, freedom of speech/association/religion, pluralism, open media, transparent government, independent judiciary, educational achievements, and legal/cultural protections for individuals from discrimination on protected grounds. Yeah, we're just like the Arabs who cut the heads off of foreign workers and upload them to Jihadi websites and cheer in the streets of Jerusalem while eating baklawa in jubilation over seeing thousands of people murdered on 9/11.

Back to the subject, I actually laughed when I read the news about the Syrian deaths in the Golan, I found it hilarious that these Arabs have such low regard for their lives that they're willing to willingly sacrifice themselves in order to obtain a thousand dollars for their families and have an alley named after them in Ramallah. They literally walked across Syrian landmines!!!

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg, normally I consider your posts jibberish. In this case we agree. I am reading Jefferson's War about the Barbary Coast Pirates. They used Jihad as the justification for plunder of shipping and enslavement of the crews.

Crusades the same thing - to keep trade routes open under the guise of some wonderful quest for sainthood. I don't mean that Islam is a corporate religion - it is and always was a corporation - Mohamid who married a rich widow and was primarily a buisness man himself ...was not like the non-matierialist Jesus Christ - Mohamid's first move - in the fact that he was a rich guy was raise an army and create a corporate empire...I have scanned the Koran - and I did not get a religous feeling from the manuscript...I was a rough book - it gave me a head ache...unlike the teachings of Christ that was hopeful and assisted on expansion of conciousness.....

[Oleg Bach]

ahah. you and Yankee Woman must be Jews. We think the same on this. Ahah. You 2 admit you eat bagels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SILLY.... Have that guy fired for being inept...what's he talking about?

[Oleg Bach]

ahah. you and Yankee Woman must be Jews. We think the same on this. Ahah. You 2 admit you eat bagels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"you 2" -------------must be a twelve year old texting addict...lol

[Rue]

There is no reason democracy can't exist in a state with an official religion.That is a bit of a red herring if the point you want to make is that shooting unarmed protestors is incompatible with democracy. they are two different things.

How dare you come on this forum and engage in logic and common sense.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Rue

[Rue]

SILLY.... Have that guy fired for being inept...what's he talking about?

Say Oleg do you like bagels?

[Rue]

The response was to "(s)orry I don't walk and talk like Bob or JBG".

Uh yes. Of course.

The fact that I am Jewish as are you does not mean we walk or talk the same way. How is that an insult? Have you seen the way I walk? I walk like a duck.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Rue

[WIP]

I find WIP's post unworthy of response. To characterize the hostilities at the Golan as "Israeli troops shooting down unarmed demonstrators in the Golan", and then to directly draw moral equivalence between us and the Arabs tell us everything we need to know about him.

And the fact that you consider yourself superior to Arabs, and don't consider them worthy of basic human rights, tells me everything I need to know about you! And the fact that your friend responds to the analogy with Apartheid South Africa by implying that the blacks were better off being ruled by a white thug than a black thug tells me everything I need to know about him! And the fact that Israeli soldiers respond to unarmed intruders on the Syrian border by shooting them dead, tells me everything I need to know about your government!

Nevermind the fact that this is a border with a country that we are still officially at war with, and a country that regularly supplies arms and other support to terrorists that murder us, nevermind the fact that this angry mob was throwing stones at our soldiers, nevermind the fact that they were cutting through the fence

Yes, I recall your excuses and stickhandling of this story when it was in the news, and it still isn't worth shit! You know as well as anyone else that they could have dealt with the incursion without causing death...but, they didn't want to, because they wanted to make an example of them...just like that Turkish ship trying to break the Gaza Blockade...I expect the same thing will happen if the next attempt is made! I remember video of other Israeli demonstrations, such as the removal of Jewish settlers from the Gaza, and yet the IDF didn't have to kill anyone to remove them...and they were an angry mob throwing stones also.

There is an obvious and growing hardening and radicalization of the population in Israel. I've read numerous stories about the growing influence of Orthodox zealots on the Government and society at large....can't help to notice that on the other side, I don't hear much from Peace Now or other liberal groups. I assume that most Israelis really think like you do and are not interested in any sort of realistic peace process. That's your choice, and I wouldn't be very concerned about Israel's fight-em-to-the-bitter-end strategy, except that, thanks to our latest Prime Minister, it is our fight too, like it or not!

Back to the subject, I actually laughed when I read the news about the Syrian deaths in the Golan, I found it hilarious that these Arabs have such low regard for their lives that they're willing to willingly sacrifice themselves in order to obtain a thousand dollars for their families and have an alley named after them in Ramallah. They literally walked across Syrian landmines!!!

YOur laughing because you have such a low regard for their lives! The "they do it too" excuse doesn't exactly cut it here. What's the next step? The growth settlements, walls and fences on the West Bank, for all intents and purposes looks just like a slow moving policy of ethnic cleansing. Fine, if your grandfathers and great grandfathers decided it was time to leave Europe for the Holy Land, and kick out anyone who moved in during the last 2000 years -- it's your war to fight -- my objection is being drawn into supporting this policy by my Government.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... Fine, if your grandfathers and great grandfathers decided it was time to leave Europe for the Holy Land, and kick out anyone who moved in during the last 2000 years -- it's your war to fight -- my objection is being drawn into supporting this policy by my Government.

Then your beef is with your own government, not Israel or Israelis. The Americans have built a fine wall in several southwest states, and would do the same along the northern border with Canada if/when necessary. This should get you hopping mad too. This is the action of a sovereign nation state....just like Israel.