Postal Strike Imminent

[bloodyminded]

You completely ignored my point. We depend entirely on these "failed states" for our standard of living. Our society cannot sustain itself without dirt cheap labour from places where the welfare state does not exist. The welfare state is a ponzi scheme for rich people that depends on someone somewhere getting next to nothing.

Ah, I see. You've got it partially right; the capitalist state depends on such exploitation, and would continue to do so without any welfare state. Your issue is with capitalism, not its mildly socialist amelioratives.

Edited June 3, 2011 by bloodyminded

[TimG]

You've got it partially right; the capitalist state depends on such exploitation, and would continue to do so without any welfare state. Your issue is with capitalism, not its mildly socialist amelioratives.

The "socialist state" depends on wealth generated by capitalism. So you cannot separate one from the other. Our society is a capitalist society and there is no alternative whether you like it or not.

You tried to argue that some sort of 'minimum standards' should apply but you are blind because your minimum standards only apply to this country - you ignore workers in other countries which you depend on for your standard of living. If their wages and benefits went up your standard of living would go down - a lot.

Now you are reduced to special pleading by saying government workers should be entitled to above market benefits to "ameliorate" the perceived harms of the capitalist economy. However, such arguments ignore the harms to the real wealth producing activities which is ultimately my point. Why should government workers be singled out for special treatment?

Edited June 3, 2011 by TimG

[fellowtraveller]

That may be, but we're about equal with pretty much all of our Western European peers, and we're actually ahead of some of them.

I rarely agree with you, but if you are referring to small business we are miles or perhaps kilometers ahead of many West European countries.

From personal experience, operating a small business in UK or France is a nightmare compared to Canada. large business there is heavily supported by govt, small business is the opposite.

[Scotty]

No actually.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/59/Gini_Coefficient_World_CIA_Report_2009-1.png

The GINI coefficient measures wealth disparity. We're in line with all of our peers.

And yet, all 'our peers' have mandated long vacation periods, while we have just about the shortest in the world. All our peers have a more congenial working environment for workers, too, and mandated benefits which you and others seem to feel we can't afford in Canada.

Why is that?

[Scotty]

Oh well then, it must be true.

Yes, I just made it up.

Google

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, I just made it up.

Google

Typical...American stats.

[Scotty]

Public workers should have their salaries and benefits indexed to the overall health of the economy and economic growth. Public workers shouldn't be allowed pay raises or benefit raises during slow economic periods of growth or recessions. It doesn't make any sense.

Does it make sense that the financial industry is giving out tens of billions of dollars in bonuses after it barely survived, and in the midst of a deep recession?

Does it make sense that the big shots who drove companies into the ground, or nearly did, got fat bonuses?

Does it make sense you never complain about that?

[Scotty]

This is a North American trait, I believe. The U.S. is known as "the no vacation nation" and I think Canada follows suit. I don't think it's a healthy way of life for anyone nor beneficial in the long run to employers/companies.

I think the US is the only country in the western world which does not mandate at least some paid vacation time. Canada is barely above them at 2 weeks mandated.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think the US is the only country in the western world which does not mandate at least some paid vacation time. Canada is barely above them at 2 weeks mandated.

...and you would be thinkin' wrong. Federal contracts and labour standards do just that...in the US of A.

Now back to Canada.

Edited June 3, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Scotty]

That may be, but we're about equal with pretty much all of our Western European peers, and we're actually ahead of some of them.

We absolutely are not. We have laxer labour laws, a lot less vacation, fewer holidays, and lower benefits, both in terms of what employers pay and in terms of social safety nets.

[Guest American Woman]

I think the US is the only country in the western world which does not mandate at least some paid vacation time. Canada is barely above them at 2 weeks mandated.

This is most likely true, but of those offered vacation, according to this site, in Canada only 58 percent use their full paid vacation days compared to 57% in the United States, so there is virtually an equal 'problem' regarding the mindset in both Canada and the United States.

[CPCFTW]

We absolutely are not. We have laxer labour laws, a lot less vacation, fewer holidays, and lower benefits, both in terms of what employers pay and in terms of social safety nets.

Unless you work in the public sector.

[bush_cheney2004]

This is most likely true,....

Except when it isn't, and vacation benefits are mandated. 29 CFR 4.173, Regulations on Meeting Requirements for Vacation Fringe Benefits for Federal Contracts...apply

[Guest American Woman]

Except when it isn't, and vacation benefits are mandated. 29 CFR 4.173, Regulations on Meeting Requirements for Vacation Fringe Benefits for Federal Contracts...apply

So people with Federal Contracts get mandated vacations. What does that have to do with America as a whole?

[bush_cheney2004]

So people with Federal Contracts get mandated vacations. What does that have to do with America as a whole?

As a whole....it means that there are mandated vacation benefits in some instances, contrary to earlier posts. Federal contracts are very big business.

[Guest American Woman]

As a whole....it means that there are mandated vacation benefits in some instances, contrary to earlier posts. Federal contracts are very big business.

Who said they weren't ever mandated? The comments that I read were clearly in regards to the U.S. as a whole, and in regards to the U.S. as a whole, they are true. Of course contracts vary according to jobs, but Americans are not privy to mandated vacations, and many do not get them. The U.S. basically stands alone in this regard compared to similar nations.

[bush_cheney2004]

Who said they weren't ever mandated?

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18993&view=findpost&p=677794

The comments that I read were clearly in regards to the U.S. as a whole, and in regards to the U.S. as a whole, they are true. Of course contracts vary according to jobs, but Americans are not privy to mandated vacations, and many do not get them. The U.S. basically stands alone in this regard compared to similar nations.

That is a gross generalization, and conflates the benefit with the decision to exercise same. More Americans earn vacation benefits than do not.

[Guest American Woman]

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18993&view=findpost&p=677794

I think you misread that post - "not mandate at least some vacation time" refers to not mandating at least some vacation time for everyone - as in 'at least a week,' not as in 'doesn't mandate vacation time for at least some workers.'

That is a gross generalization, and conflates the benefit with the decision to exercise same. More Americans earn vacation benefits than do not.

It's not a gross generalization at all - it's a fact. The fact that more earn vacation benefits than do not doesn't change the fact that many do not. It also doesn't change the fact that the U.S. basically stands alone in regards to not mandating vacation time for all workers - when compared to similar nations.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think you misread that post - "not mandate at least some vacation time" refers to not mandating at least some vacation time for everyone - as in 'at least a week,' not as in 'doesn't mandate vacation time for at least some workers.'

You say tomato, I say tomahto. The US does mandate vacations for federal contracts in excess of dollar thresholds.

It's not a gross generalization at all - it's a fact. The fact that more earn vacation benefits than do not doesn't change the fact that many do not. It also doesn't change the fact that the U.S. basically stands alone in regards to not mandating vacation time for all workers - when compared to similar nations.

Cite please...you are making another gross generalization.

US law does not require employers to grant any vacation or holidays and about 25% of all employees receive no vacation time or holidays: No-Vacation Nation. For employees that do receive vacation, 10 working days with 8 national holidays is fairly standard. Members of the US Armed Services earn a total of 30 vacation days a year, not including national holidays.

Edited June 3, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

You say tomato, I say tomahto. The US does mandate vacations for federal contracts in excess of dollar thresholds.

Hooray for those workers with federal contracts. If all Americans had federal contracts, that would mean something in regards to the actual issue/point being made.

Cite please...you are making another gross generalization.

What did I say that you aren't already aware of? Are you truly unaware that many Americans do not get a paid vacation because it's not mandated that they do? Or are you unaware that most, if not all, similar nations do mandate it?

At any rate, here you go: PAID HOLIDAYS/VACATION DAYS IN THE U.S. VERSUS OTHER OECD COUNTRIES

I see that you yourself now acknowledge that "25% of all employees receive no vacation time or holidays," so you yourself prove my point.

Edited June 3, 2011 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

Hooray for those workers with federal contracts. If all Americans had federal contracts, that would mean something in regards to the actual issue/point being made.

Millions do...and they count towards the 75% who do as well.

What did I say that you aren't already aware of? Are you truly unaware that many Americans do not get a paid vacation because it's not mandated that they do? Or are you unaware that most, if not all, similar nations do mandate it?

I have already demonstrated that 75% do get paid vacations.

At any rate, here you go: PAID HOLIDAYS/VACATION DAYS IN THE U.S. VERSUS OTHER OECD COUNTRIES

Now it's only "OECD" countries? No Brazil, or China, or India?

[Guest American Woman]

Millions do...and they count towards the 75% who do as well.

Ummm. Yeah. 75% do, but 25% do not. Therefore it's a true statement that the US doesn't not mandate vacations.

I have already demonstrated that 75% do get paid vacations.

Good for you. Too bad it doesn't mean jack-shit regarding the statement that many do not; that all Americans aren't privy to mandated vacations.

Now it's only "OECD" countries? No Brazil, or China, or India?

No, not "now" ... ever since the topic was raised.

So continue to carry on about 75% getting paid vacations, as all you are doing is proving what I said - what Scotty said - to be true.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ummm. Yeah. 75% do, but 25% do not. Therefore it's a true statement that the US doesn't not mandate vacations.

Good for you. Too bad it doesn't mean jack-shit regarding the statement that many do not; that all Americans aren't privy to mandated vacations.

Krikey...how many would be enough for you...100%? Even if it meant fewer jobs?

No, not "now" ... ever since the topic was raised.

Negative..."OECD" just popped up.

So continue to carry on about 75% getting paid vacations, as all you are doing is proving what I said - what Scotty said - to be true.

Nope....the US does mandate paid vacations for federal contracts including the armed services.

[Guest American Woman]

Krikey...how many would be enough for you...100%?

By George, I think you've got it! "Mandated vacations for Americans" would be 100%, same as the other "similar nations" that have been referred to.

But it's not the case, proving, once again, what Scotty and I have said to be true. So thank you for that.

[bush_cheney2004]

By George, I think you've got it! "Mandated vacations for Americans" would be 100%, same as the other "similar nations" that have been referred to.

Would that include crack dealers and sex workers in Vancouver, or don't they count?

But it's not the case, proving, once again, what Scotty and I have said to be true. So thank you for that.

You're certainly welcome....the nuances of US labour law are my specialty. It's all good, if only for stomping all over this "Canadian" thread with more American crap.