Unions vs Tories

CPCFTW · May 23, 2011

Toronto teachers get pre-negotiated raises plus inflationary increases during a recession. See charts on page 25.

http://www.osstfd12.com/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=115,19,9,5,Documents&MediaID=136&Filename=CollAgr0812.pdf

Let's say you started in September 08 with a bachelor degree of arts and a 2 yr teaching degree (group 4), you would have started at a salary of $50,702, and by Sept 2011 you would be making $65,573, a 30% raise while thousands in the private sector got laid off or had their pay frozen.

The annual inflation rates from 2008 to 2010 were 2.37%, 0.30%, and 1.78% respectively, for a combined inflation of 4.5% over the period (I'm assuming the inflation from sept 08 to jan 09 + jan 11 to sep 11 will be roughly equal to the inflation rate of 2008 given current inflation trends, so I am using it as a proxy for this value). A 4.5% inflation adjustment would equate to a salary of around $53000.

Therefore, Toronto teachers got a real raise of 7.3% per year during the worst recession since the great depression ($53,000 x 1.073^3 = 65,500). They're so oppressed!!! I didn't even bother reading the rest of their ridiculous benefits.

Edited May 23, 2011 by CPCFTW

punked · May 23, 2011

From my association with about 7 teachers, I'd say the job is easy, and rewarding if you're not a lazy simple servant, but the union bullshit and bureaucracy drives an honest person crazy.

Yep that must be it. 50% of people leave teaching because of the union and bureaucracy. Makes perfect sense now. Here is an idea how about you run on your "The teacher unions make it so teachers are over paid and they also make so teachers quit the job" plank. I would like to see how many votes you get.

Edited May 23, 2011 by punked

CPCFTW · May 23, 2011

Yep you better get into teaching. I wish you the best of luck. Remember the turn over rate is around 50%. Meaning about half of all people who go into teacher are out in the first 10 years. Must be an easy job eh?

50% in 10 years? Is that supposed to be bad? How many jobs are there out there that recent university grads will stay in for over 10 years? I actually can't think of any other than cushy federal government jobs. Most university grads have ambition and aren't ready to settle down as a career high school teacher. Doesn't mean it's a hard job.

You must be reading propaganda pamphlets from your union rep if you think that's significant.

Edited May 23, 2011 by CPCFTW

punked · May 23, 2011

Toronto teachers get pre-negotiated raises plus inflationary increases during a recession. See charts on page 25.

http://www.osstfd12.com/adx/aspx/adxGetMedia.aspx?DocID=115,19,9,5,Documents&MediaID=136&Filename=CollAgr0812.pdf

Let's say you started in September 08 with a bachelor degree of arts and a 2 yr teaching degree (group 4), you would have started at a salary of $50,702, and by Sept 2011 you would be making $65,573, a 30% raise while thousands in the private sector got laid off or had their pay frozen.

The annual inflation rates from 2008 to 2010 were 2.37%, 0.30%, and 1.78% respectively, for a combined inflation of 4.5% over the period (I'm assuming the inflation from sept 08 to jan 09 + jan 11 to sep 11 will be roughly equal to the inflation rate of 2008 given current inflation trends, so I am using it as a proxy for this value). A 4.5% inflation adjustment would equate to a salary of around $53000.

Toronto teachers got a real raise of 7.3% per year during the worst recession since the great depression ($53,000 x 1.073^3 = 65,500). They're so oppressed!!! I didn't even bother reading the rest of their ridiculous benefits.

And the average house hold income in Toronto is 100,000 dollars a year so what is your point? Yep in Toronto teachers make more then in Halifax, or in Fredericton I am shocked.

Edited May 23, 2011 by punked

punked · May 23, 2011

50% in 10 years? Is that supposed to be bad? How many jobs are there out there that recent university grads will stay in for over 10 years? I actually can't think of any other than cushy federal government jobs. Most university grads have ambition and aren't ready to settle down as a career high school teacher. Doesn't mean it's a hard job.

You must be reading propaganda pamphlets from your union rep if you think that's significant.

Did I fail to mention 40% of teachers leave the field of Education all together. Tell me how many University grads who go into their field of study (Science, Law, Business) leave their field entirely in the first 10 years please?

Listen if you think teachers earn to much for what they do then let them go to strike.

Edited May 23, 2011 by punked

CPCFTW · May 23, 2011

And the average house hold income in Toronto is 100,000 dollars a year so what is your point? Yep in Toronto teachers make more then in Halifax, or in Fredericton I am shocked.

What's my point? The 7.3% REAL per annum raise during the worst recession since the great depression is my point. Do I really have to clarify anything about that for you? And you are who we are paying to teach our children? :unsure:

RNG · May 23, 2011

Yep that must be it. 50% of people leave teaching because of the union and bureaucracy. Makes perfect sense now. Here is an idea how about you run on your "The teacher unions make it so teachers are over paid and they also make so teachers quit the job" plank. I would like to see how many votes you get.

The great unwashed masses can't think in such esoteric terms, so I'm sure I wouldn't get many votes. Notice I'm not running?

But keep that Happy Jack propaganda pumping machine primed. The next NDP candidate of where ever you live.

punked · May 23, 2011

The great unwashed masses can't think in such esoteric terms, so I'm sure I wouldn't get many votes. Notice I'm not running?

But keep that Happy Jack propaganda pumping machine primed. The next NDP candidate of where ever you live.

I have a NDP MP. Seems like whatever he was saying got him elected.

CPCFTW · May 23, 2011

Did I fail to mention 40% of teachers leave the field of Education all together. Tell me how many University grads who go into their field of study (Science, Law, Business) leave their field entirely in the first 10 years please?

Who knows? Probably quite a few, I'd say at least 20-30% don't even get into their field in the first place. I doubt that every history, philosophy, or social sciences graduate finds a "job" in those "fields". :lol:

Lots of private companies like to hire business and engineering grads in fields unrelated to their degrees.

punked · May 23, 2011

What's my point? The 7.3% REAL per annum raise during the worst recession since the great depression is my point. Do I really have to clarify anything about that for you? And you are who we are paying to teach our children?

So what Ontario also promised the police a 14% raise at the end of their contract. What is your point again? That teachers are making less than other civil servants and less then those in private industry in Toronto? I agree they are but they usually like their jobs care about the children and that makes up for the fact they could be doing better in other sectors.

punked · May 23, 2011

Who knows? Probably quite a few, I'd say at least 20-30% don't even get into their field in the first place. I doubt that every history, philosophy, or social sciences graduate finds a "job" in those "fields".

Lots of private companies like to hire business and engineering grads in fields unrelated to their degrees.

So your real answer you don't know. Again a lot of people who spend 50-60 thousand dollars to become teachers don't even make it. It is competitive and takes the right type of person to do it.

RNG · May 23, 2011

So what Ontario also promised the police a 14% raise at the end of their contract. What is your point again? That teachers are making less than other civil servants and less then those in private industry in Toronto? I agree they are but they usually like their jobs care about the children and that makes up for the fact they could be doing better in other sectors.

Are you serious? Are you saying Ontario firefighters and paramedics make more than Ontario teachers? I'm going to need a like for this one.

punked · May 23, 2011

Are you serious? Are you saying Ontario firefighters and paramedics make more than Ontario teachers? I'm going to need a like for this one.

This is before Mayor Ford gave the police an 11% salary bump in the worst economic recession of our time.

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/careers/salaryandbenefits.php

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2008/12/18/toronto-police-to-get-raise-of-almost-10-over-three-years.aspx

Scotty · May 23, 2011

Are you serious? Are you saying Ontario firefighters and paramedics make more than Ontario teachers? I'm going to need a like for this one.

Hey, those guys train for weeks! They deserve salaries in the high seventies! High nineties with overtime.

RNG · May 23, 2011

This is before Mayor Ford gave the police an 11% salary bump in the worst economic recession of our time.

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/careers/salaryandbenefits.php

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2008/12/18/toronto-police-to-get-raise-of-almost-10-over-three-years.aspx

And those relate to firefighters and paramedics how?

TOTAL FAIL!

MiddleClassCentrist · May 23, 2011

Therefore, Toronto teachers got a real raise of 7.3% per year during the worst recession since the great depression ($53,000 x 1.073^3 = 65,500). They're so oppressed!!! I didn't even bother reading the rest of their ridiculous benefits.

I'm calling complete and utter BS on your part here.

I remember this deal clearly because I wondered "WTF, the government has them by the balls. Why did they give 3% per year...?"

There was a government deal of 3% per year for 4 years.

$53,000 x 1.03^3 = $57,900

Not nearly as drastic as you claim...

Are you claiming that someone should not be able to move up the salary grid during a wage increase freeze?

Edited May 23, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

punked · May 23, 2011

And those relate to firefighters and paramedics how?

TOTAL FAIL!

I remember making a comparison to the police and you very carefully including Firefighters (who make around the same number as teachers) and paramedics in there. So I went back and backed up my police statement. Again teachers are making the same amount if not less then those civil servants around them.

BTW Nurses in Toronto make on Average 65-70 K a year.

CPCFTW · May 23, 2011

So what Ontario also promised the police a 14% raise at the end of their contract. What is your point again? That teachers are making less than other civil servants and less then those in private industry in Toronto? I agree they are but they usually like their jobs care about the children and that makes up for the fact they could be doing better in other sectors.

I already said that almost every public servant is overpaid. Don't know why you keep bringing up other public servants. You're all overpaid.

Yes the average household income is 100k, but the median is 76k. Also 50% of households have over 3 individuals. I don't expect you to interpret those statistics rationally, so I'll do it for you: The average is distorted by 20% of Toronto having household incomes over 100k (ie. the 19% of households with two teachers or litter pickers or bus drivers, and 1% of households with the lawyers, bankers, and executives).

A ttc fare collector with a wife working as a retail sales associate and a son flipping burgers at mcdonalds part time has a household income of 100k. Doesn't mean the ttc fare collector isn't overpaid.

Edited May 24, 2011 by CPCFTW

Bonam · May 24, 2011

There was a government deal of 3% per year for 4 years.

$53,000 x 1.03^3 = $57,900

If it's 4 years, it'd be:

$53,000 x 1.03^4 = $59,650

Edited May 24, 2011 by Bonam

punked · May 24, 2011

I already said that almost every public servant is overpaid. Don't know why you keep bringing up other public servants. You're all overpaid.

Yes the average household income is 100k, but the median is 76k. Also 50% of households have over 3 individuals. I don't expect you to interpret those statistics rationally, so I'll do it for you: The average is distorted by 20% of Toronto having household incomes over 100k (ie. the 19% of households with two teachers or litter pickers or bus drivers, and 1% of households with the lawyers, bankers, and executives).

A ttc fare collector with a wife working as a retail sales associate and a son flipping burgers at mcdonalds part time has a household income of 100k. Doesn't mean the ttc fare collector isn't overpaid.

So what you are saying is Teachers earn LESS then the median income of Toronto and you want them to earn less? Yes I get what you are saying, you are in a race to the bottom and you think all workers should earn less money.

See this is where we differ I want Canadians ALL CANADIANS to at the end of the day have more money in their pocket. You want them to have less. I wish the Conservative party would just be as honest and clear about this issue as you are being.

RNG · May 24, 2011

I remember making a comparison to the police and you very carefully including Firefighters (who make around the same number as teachers) and paramedics in there. So I went back and backed up my police statement. Again teachers are making the same amount if not less then those civil servants around them.

BTW Nurses in Toronto make on Average 65-70 K a year.

I just went back and tried to find that post. I couldn't. Care to give me a timestamp or post number?

And I still want a source showing that firefighters make about the same as teachers.

Edited May 24, 2011 by RNG

MiddleClassCentrist · May 24, 2011

I already said that almost every public servant is overpaid. Don't know why you keep bringing up other public servants. You're all overpaid.

Yes the average household income is 100k, but the median is 76k. Also 50% of households have over 3 individuals. I don't expect you to interpret those statistics rationally, so I'll do it for you: The average is distorted by 20% of Toronto having household incomes over 100k (ie. the 19% of households with two teachers or litter pickers or other public servants, and 1% of households with the lawyers, bankers, and executives).

You make a great point.

We should be comparing professionals to other professionals of equivalent education/experience!

Not the masses who didn't bother investing in themselves and work at Burger King and Pizza Pizza.

Even then, keep attacking the litter pickers as being out of line. I know that is your talking point. If the job is that good. Why don't you sign up?

CPCFTW · May 24, 2011

I'm calling complete and utter BS on your part here.

I remember this deal clearly because I wondered "WTF, the government has them by the balls. Why did they give 3% per year...?"

There was a government deal of 3% per year for 4 years.

$53,000 x 1.03^3 = $57,900

Not nearly as drastic as you claim...

Are you claiming that someone should not be able to move up the salary grid during a wage increase freeze?

Wtf are you talking about? I provided a link to the Collective Agreement and provided the page reference.

No they should not "move up the salary grid" plus get a 3% annual increase for inflation during a period when inflation only increased by 4.5% (3%/annum = 9.3% over the same period). The private sector was freezing wages and laying people off while teachers get to exercise their god given right to move up the salary grid?

punked · May 24, 2011

So what Ontario also promised the police a 14% raise at the end of their contract. What is your point again? That teachers are making less than other civil servants and less then those in private industry in Toronto? I agree they are but they usually like their jobs care about the children and that makes up for the fact they could be doing better in other sectors.

punked · May 24, 2011

Wtf are you talking about? I provided a link to the Collective Agreement and provided the page reference.

No they should not "move up the salary grid" plus get a 3% annual increase for inflation during a period when inflation only increased by 4.5% (3%/annum = 9.3% over the same period). The private sector was freezing wages and laying people off while teachers get to exercise their god given right to move up the salary grid?

And at the sametime that great Conservative Rob Ford gave the police 11% right?