Maritime Union

[Posc Student]

Does it make sense for a region with a population of less then 2 million to have 134 legislative members, when a province of 13 million has 107 members? The only thing I think New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and PEI would lose from uniting would be that they would have less Members of Parliaments, and not being over represented shouldn't be a big deal. The three provinces geographically are all connected and even combined they would be the smallest in size.

Some think that having a larger provinces would be easier for attracting businesses but putting that aside the cost savings alone would be huge. The number of MLAs could easily be cut in half and the public service could be reduced. The savings could be used for economic development projects and could mean big tax cuts for individuals and corporations.

I cannot imagine that there would be a lot of negatives to doing this, there would be a lot of issues to work out in the begining but after a while a Maritime Union would be much more efficient. The federal government could look at paying off so much of the three provinces current debt as a further incentive.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Separation is only in the interest, economically speaking of course, for provinces that run a surplus.

Provinces like Alberta, that get a large amount of money from extracting natural resources, could feasibly separate.

Ontario, when it was in its manufacturing prime, could have separated.

I personally have no problem supporting other provinces that have been hit hard economically over the years with tax money. That is usually where the divide comes into play.

With the separation mindset in Alberta for example. Alberta can afford to be conservative ideologically because of their natural resources, not because of innovation and hard work of their people. The oil tax revenue is huge. They don't want to share it either, which is silly because at some point in the future we will wean our need for oil products and Alberta will sink economically (could be 100 years or more, keep in mind). At that point, it would be eaten by the U.S. if it had separated.

I guess what I am saying is that, separation is often short sighted and of little benefit in the long run.

[Posc Student]

Why are you talking about separation?

[bloodyminded]

Why are you talking about separation?

Yes, this a completely different topic.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Yes, this a completely different topic.

Sorry, I seem to have had a lapse in brain activity

[bloodyminded]

Sorry, I seem to have had a lapse in brain activity

I know what that's like.

[Remiel]

A couple of things:

1) As much as we may tend to group them together, each of those provinces has its own history and its own distinctive character. If you do not think they should be concerned overmuch by that, why not add it Newfoundland & Labrador to the union as well?

2) How much such a union favour one of the former three (or four) provinces over the other? " Good overall " does not necessarily translate into " good for us " .

3) I am not sure that they would lose MPs simply by amalgamating. There is no real precedent for provinces amalgamating that we can look to, unless perhaps there is one in another Westminster country. I do not think there is any constitutional requirement that such a move would automatically change the regular procedure of seat redistribution at all... It would have to be legislated.

Also... where the Hell did you get the ridiculous idea that the Maritimes has 134 seats? Even with Newfoundland added in the Atlantic Provinces only have 32!

[Smallc]

Also... where the Hell did you get the ridiculous idea that the Maritimes has 134 seats?

MLAs and MHAs.

[Posc Student]

A couple of things:

1) As much as we may tend to group them together, each of those provinces has its own history and its own distinctive character. If you do not think they should be concerned overmuch by that, why not add it Newfoundland & Labrador to the union as well?

2) How much such a union favour one of the former three (or four) provinces over the other? " Good overall " does not necessarily translate into " good for us " .

3) I am not sure that they would lose MPs simply by amalgamating. There is no real precedent for provinces amalgamating that we can look to, unless perhaps there is one in another Westminster country. I do not think there is any constitutional requirement that such a move would automatically change the regular procedure of seat redistribution at all... It would have to be legislated.

Also... where the Hell did you get the ridiculous idea that the Maritimes has 134 seats? Even with Newfoundland added in the Atlantic Provinces only have 32!

Newfoundland and Labrador is a ferry ride away from Nova Scotia, it simply wouldn't make sense to be together. The three Maritime provinces combined is only a little bigger then the island of Newfoundland, the united province would still geographically be the smallest in Canada. For someone to get to the Maritimes from Labrador, by car, it would take several days, you can drive through the three provinces now in less then a day.

I agree with the provinces having three different histories and cultures but you could say that about francophone New Brunswick and Anglophone New Brunswick. Or Southern Ontario and Northern Ontario, or Newfoundland and Labrador. Uniting doesn't mean your history just disappears.

I don't see why people think one province will be treated better then the other. A new government, like any government, should make sure each region of the province is treated fairly. I'm sure there are currently people in one region of Nova Scotia who think they aren't treated as fairly as another.

The provinces were all allocated a certain number of MPs when they joined Canada, it's in the constitution that they can have no less then what they currently have even though they are over represented. If they were to unite it would mean changing the constitution and the government of the day may think that it's only fair that the new province be represented like the others. Of course that may not happen, but if it does I don't think it's a huge deal.

Also Nova Scotia has 52 MLAs, New Brunswick has 55 MLAs and PEI has 27 MLAs, I will let you add all that up.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Posc Student

[Remiel]

Newfoundland and Labrador is a ferry ride away from Nova Scotia, it simply wouldn't make sense to be together. The three Maritime provinces combined is only a little bigger then the island of Newfoundland, the united province would still geographically be the smallest in Canada. For someone to get to the Maritimes from Labrador, by car, it would take several days, you can drive through the three provinces now in less then a day.

I suppose I had forgotten about Labrador; though the greatest geographic distance from the bottom of Nova Scotia to the top of Labrador would still be comparable to the greatest width of Ontario.

I agree with the provinces having three different histories and cultures but you could say that about francophone New Brunswick and Anglophone New Brunswick. Or Southern Ontario and Northern Ontario, or Newfoundland and Labrador. Uniting doesn't mean your history just disappears.

I don't see why people think one province will be treated better then the other. A new government, like any government, should make sure each region of the province is treated fairly. I'm sure there are currently people in one region of Nova Scotia who think they aren't treated as fairly as another.

"Should" and "would" are worlds apart. And while it is true that intra-province inequities exist, it could probably be said that many regions, given a chance, might not opt to be all part of the same province. There is such a thing as a " Toronto Separatist Movement " , after all.

The provinces were all allocated a certain number of MPs when they joined Canada, it's in the constitution that they can have no less then what they currently have even though they are over represented. If they were to unite it would mean changing the constitution and the government of the day may think that it's only fair that the new province be represented like the others. Of course that may not happen, but if it does I don't think it's a huge deal.

Right now there is no " like the others " . Consider how close Quebec has come in the past to being guaranteed 25% of the seats. Strict rep by pop is only barely holding on as a principle in Canada I think.

Also Nova Scotia has 52 MLAs, New Brunswick has 55 MLAs and PEI has 27 MLAs, I will let you add all that up.

Well, I was only thinking of federal. I imagine they might cut the provincial parliament to 100 in a merged scenario. I wonder if they might reinstate a senate though?

[Posc Student]

Well, I was only thinking of federal. I imagine they might cut the provincial parliament to 100 in a merged scenario. I wonder if they might reinstate a senate though?

100 members for a population of under 2,000,000? I'd say 60 tops. As well no other province has a seante and I don't even know if it'd really be allowed, what would the sense of it be?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Mike Harris cut Ontario to the number of MPP's to the number of Federal MP's. The rationale was that if Ontario can be represented with that many federally, why not provincially.

For example... PEI has what, 3 MP's federally?

They have 27 provincial. http://www.assembly.pe.ca/index.php3?number=1024584〈=E

Edited May 18, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Benz]

I don't think they would be interested. I fail to see how PEI would win anything from it. Unless the federal give them a big gift for doing so. The bilingual status of NB could me threatened by the merge of the other two. Perhaps NS would feel they are pulling drags and would be better off without them.

It can be a good idea but, more advantages must be added to the equation to make it attractive. Reduction of the bureaucracy won't be enough. Otherwise it would have been done long time ago.

[Posc Student]

I don't think they would be interested. I fail to see how PEI would win anything from it. Unless the federal give them a big gift for doing so. The bilingual status of NB could me threatened by the merge of the other two. Perhaps NS would feel they are pulling drags and would be better off without them.

It can be a good idea but, more advantages must be added to the equation to make it attractive. Reduction of the bureaucracy won't be enough. Otherwise it would have been done long time ago.

I'm sure the federal government would offer some support. All three provinces could benefit with a reduction in the number elected officials and the downsizing of government in general. They are some of highest taxed places in the country, probably North America, uniting would allow for major tax cuts to help spur population and economic growth.

This whole one province would make out better then the other just doesn't really make sense.

[Shady]

Sorry, I seem to have had a lapse in brain activity

That's ok. Pretty much all of what you said was complete nonsense anyways.

[Remiel]

100 members for a population of under 2,000,000? I'd say 60 tops. As well no other province has a seante and I don't even know if it'd really be allowed, what would the sense of it be?

Since when is there a linear scale between the population of an area and the number of politicians in has? That would be like saying, given the national average of people per federal riding, that the province of Prince Edward Island only needs two MPPs: one to be in charge and one to oppose him. And the reason that they might want a Senate is the same as the reason (in theory) that Canada has one: to balance the disparate interests of regions of differing sizes. I am not saying that they would have one, just that it would make some sense if they did.

[Posc Student]

Since when is there a linear scale between the population of an area and the number of politicians in has? That would be like saying, given the national average of people per federal riding, that the province of Prince Edward Island only needs two MPPs: one to be in charge and one to oppose him. And the reason that they might want a Senate is the same as the reason (in theory) that Canada has one: to balance the disparate interests of regions of differing sizes. I am not saying that they would have one, just that it would make some sense if they did.

Lots of people complain about PEI being over represented. The reason the government is adding seats to the House of Commons is because the population is growing. A united Maritimes would really be no different then any other province.

Ontario has 13 million people and has 107 MLAs and you think 2 million people should have 100? If these MLAs were paid $80,000 a year it would mean spending $8 million a year just of MLAs, 50 MLAs would probably make sense.

[Remiel]

Ontario has 13 million people and has 107 MLAs and you think 2 million people should have 100? If these MLAs were paid $80,000 a year it would mean spending $8 million a year just of MLAs, 50 MLAs would probably make sense.

Did you not actually pay attention to what I just wrote about linear progression?

The number of legislators you need is not a function of how many people you have but rather of your electoral system and the work to be done. You need enough to make the legislature dynamic and to maintain a large enough talent pool for if some people do not work out.

[Remiel]

For further illustration as to how legislators and population are not linear: Nunavut has 19 legislators and only ~30,0000 people.

[Posc Student]

So unless there's not 100 MLAs there wouldn't be enough talent for say 20 Ministers?

[Remiel]

There very well may be, by why is mere sufficiency the test? As well, if you think that only cabinet ministers count, why bother with having a full legislature at all.

I could accept maybe 80 members, but I think the strongly regional nature of an amalgamated Maritimes would mean it would be better to shoot high than low for numbers of legislative seats. Alberta has 83, and British Columbia has 85, and they are only twice the population, as opposed to Ontarios six times.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

That's ok. Pretty much all of what you said was complete nonsense anyways.

Translation: Hey guys, look at me. LOOOK AT MEEEE!!! I want to address an already resolved issue. One more post!!! YEahhhhhhh.... oh yeah..... feels good.

Thanks for the laugh

[Posc Student]

There very well may be, by why is mere sufficiency the test? As well, if you think that only cabinet ministers count, why bother with having a full legislature at all.

I could accept maybe 80 members, but I think the strongly regional nature of an amalgamated Maritimes would mean it would be better to shoot high than low for numbers of legislative seats. Alberta has 83, and British Columbia has 85, and they are only twice the population, as opposed to Ontarios six times.

They're only twice the size...

[MiddleClassCentrist]

They're only twice the size...

I guess that means that they should be aiming for 45-60 seats.

I don't live out east. Is there demand for a maritime union?

[bloodyminded]

I guess that means that they should be aiming for 45-60 seats.

I don't live out east. Is there demand for a maritime union?

No.