Taxation is theft

[Sandy MacNab]

You really aren't speaking to the points raised. "Left dumb, Right smart" can only be used as an argument so many times.

It's not an argument, it's an axiom.

[WIP]

Who cares about income gaps. Should people care if millionaires are billionaires if the average canadian is making 70k instead of 40k? Get that communist shit out of here. Quit passing off your jealousy as "compassion".

I make over 70,000 a year, and I would prefer living in a society like we used to have, that had less inequality, than the dystopia that we are heading into thanks to all of you rightwing libertarians.

[WIP]

What solution did liberals came up with?

I'm not a liberal, but it seems that liberals are usually sensible enough to take the moderate approach to capitalism.

[bloodyminded]

It's ok, I was a commie when I was 18 too. Some of us grow out of it.

I was conservative as a young man. As you say, we grow.

[bloodyminded]

The source is a nobel prize winner.

So is Paul Krugman.

You see, every single thing you cite can be refuted using your own formulations of "authority," "expertise," and so on.

[Saipan]

I'm not a liberal, but it seems that liberals are usually sensible enough to take the moderate approach to capitalism.

With just as many specifics

[Saipan]

I was conservative as a young man. As you say, we grow.

That would make you grow bacwards.

[WIP]

That would make you grow bacwards.

Many psychologists such as George Lakoff and Robert Altemeyer, who've ventured in to studying the followers of political movements, point out that there is a basic divide in politics that comes from how receptive an individual is to authoritarian thinking. The people who prefer to be told what to believe, are more likely to settle in comfortably in fundamentalist religions, and conservative politics.

In our youth, we are at our most adventurous and boldest state in our lives; so it's no surprise that fundamentalist churches fret over losing the teenagers, just as university students are the mostly likely to join radical political movements. Later on in life, we start getting more careful and cautious, so if we have a tendency towards authoritarianism, we may go back to that church, or something similar later on when we have children of our own, and move towards the conventional, conservative politics of our fathers. So, that may explain the general trends.

In his book "The Authoritarians," Altemeyer points out that fear...such as the fear and paranoia after 9/11, may cause many who would have been tolerant and liberal to turn towards authoritarian solutions....thank you George W Bush! But, the liberals who turned to W after 9/11 got buyer's remorse after seeing how their nation got bogged down in expensive foreign wars that W lied his way in to. While the authoritarian conservatives sucked up each and every flimsy excuse for foreign intervention without question...and that basic tension caused by different psychological makeup explains about 90% of what goes on in the world of politics.

[Jack Weber]

It's called hyperbole. You don't think unskilled, unionized public service workers are overpaid?

As I understand it,Uncle Milty's issue with unions had nothing to do with the Public sector/Private sector differentiation...

It was ALL organized labour should be limited( if not eliminated) because they are a (necessary) imposition on the free market??

[Saipan]

Many psychologists such as George Lakoff and Robert Altemeyer, who've ventured in to studying the followers of political movements, point out that there is a basic divide in politics that comes from how receptive an individual is to authoritarian thinking. The people who prefer to be told what to believe, are more likely to settle in comfortably in fundamentalist religions, and conservative politics.

In our youth, we are at our most adventurous and boldest state in our lives; so it's no surprise that fundamentalist churches fret over losing the teenagers, just as university students are the mostly likely to join radical political movements. Later on in life, we start getting more careful and cautious, so if we have a tendency towards authoritarianism, we may go back to that church, or something similar later on when we have children of our own, and move towards the conventional, conservative politics of our fathers. So, that may explain the general trends.

In his book "The Authoritarians," Altemeyer points out that fear...such as the fear and paranoia after 9/11, may cause many who would have been tolerant and liberal to turn towards authoritarian solutions....thank you George W Bush! But, the liberals who turned to W after 9/11 got buyer's remorse after seeing how their nation got bogged down in expensive foreign wars that W lied his way in to. While the authoritarian conservatives sucked up each and every flimsy excuse for foreign intervention without question...and that basic tension caused by different psychological makeup explains about 90% of what goes on in the world of politics.

That still doesn't explain anything. YOUNGER people tend to be liberal, as they grow older and gain more expereince thet tend to be more conservative. It's not really a secret.

[CPCFTW]

As I understand it,Uncle Milty's issue with unions had nothing to do with the Public sector/Private sector differentiation...

It was ALL organized labour should be limited( if not eliminated) because they are a (necessary) imposition on the free market??

I'm referring to Canada's own overspending problems. Private sector unions are much less of a problem than public sector unions in a globalized environment. Corporations can just pack up and move in the face of an overbearing union. Globalization limits the power of private unions.

We have given public sector unions an unwarranted power... IMO unskilled labour like garbagemen and bus drivers shouldn't be able to unionize and extort Canadian taxpayers into paying them 2-3x the value of their labour. Check out the salaries of TTC employees in this 2007 article:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2007/07/26/ttc-token-taker-wage-26-58-hour.aspx

Should litter pickers be making 2x minimum wage, or token collectors 2.5x? Do you think they have earned the right to be paid more than twice as much as a Mcdonald's employee?

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't mind working 15hrs/wk part time sitting in a chair collecting tokens. I could work 7.5/hrs a day on weekends and make 1500/mo on top of my salary. A full-time fare collector is making over 50k. Why should high school dropouts who are frequently rude, sometimes incompetent, and are alleged to have occasionally assaulted customers be making this kind of money?

This type of overspending runs rampant in the public sector because of unionized unskilled labour.

[CPCFTW]

Here's another article:

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2007/07/26/meet-the-salaries-of-the-workers-who-move-toronto.aspx

Nearly 50% of Toronto’s operating budget is spent on salaries and benefits. Critics say the only way city hall can meaningfully cut costs without reducing services is to begin paying city employees more like their private-sector cousins.

Roll back wages by 30% and we'll still have litter pickers still making $15/hr, ttc collectors making $18-19/hr, bylaw officers making $20/hr. There are college and university students working at Starbucks, Subway, McDonalds, etc. for $10-11/hr who would love to have those jobs and save the city billions.

Why not have some kind of arrangement with the province/schools whereby low income students are hired to work these unskilled TTC jobs and are paid minimum wage and another $5-6/hr towards their tuition or student loans as well? This would save taxpayers billions, reduce the debt burden of students, and create incentives for those who are "oppressed by the elites" to obtain higher education.

Edited May 17, 2011 by CPCFTW

[WIP]

I'm referring to Canada's own overspending problems. Private sector unions are much less of a problem than public sector unions in a globalized environment. Corporations can just pack up and move in the face of an overbearing union. Globalization limits the power of private unions.

We have given public sector unions an unwarranted power... IMO unskilled labour like garbagemen and bus drivers shouldn't be able to unionize and extort Canadian taxpayers into paying them 2-3x the value of their labour. Check out the salaries of TTC employees in this 2007 article:

It's unfortunate for you and your cause that Canadians only have to look south of the border...Wisconsin in particular...to see how the conservative rightwing strategy of union-busting and driving down wages plays out in real life! 30 years ago, rightwing backers of free trade, deregulation and unregulated corporate capitalism, told us that everybody would benefit from Friedman economics -- 'a rising tide raises all boats' etc..

Well, the results are in now! Free trade and removal on import restrictions have allowed corporations to move production to the cheapest, near slave labour sources, so that the government workers, who have stayed where they were, look rich in comparison. And you, just like your rightwing brethren south of the border, say the solution is to bust the remaining public sector unions and drive down the wages of government employees to match the dismal state that the private sector is in! Amazing how so called freedom-lovin rightwingers think nothing of stripping public service workers of a basic right to bargain collectively.

This fraud scam worked in the U.S...at least until now, but it's not working in Canada, since we can see the results in the decline of most U.S. living standards to third world conditions.

Edited May 18, 2011 by WIP

[WIP]

I'm referring to Canada's own overspending problems.

Like this one mentioned in another thread: Canada orders 1,300 smart bombs $100,000-apiece weapons to be used in Libyan mission

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Canada+orders+smart+bombs/4800544/story.html#ixzz1Mj224Ha6

Just like the U.S., the conservatives have empty pockets when it comes to paying for healthcare and other public services, but there's always lots of money to blow shit up! We know how the U.S. benefits from using their oversized military as economic leverage, but what the hell is in it for Canada?

Private sector unions are much less of a problem than public sector unions in a globalized environment. Corporations can just pack up and move in the face of an overbearing union. Globalization limits the power of private unions.

Then get rid of globalization! We need global cooperation for protecting the environment and stopping or preventing wars -- we don't need global cooperation in the interests of multinational corporations who consider themselves a higher power than mere nation-states.

[WIP]

That still doesn't explain anything. YOUNGER people tend to be liberal, as they grow older and gain more expereince thet tend to be more conservative. It's not really a secret.

I said it explains "part" of the change in thinking, not everything! If we define liberal as being progressive -- progressive, by its very definition means being willing to try new things, and new approaches to solving problems. As people age, their tastes become more entrenched, and they are more resistant to change. We can see an example of this in music tastes, which change through teenage years, but are usually set for life by early 20's. Very few people are open to new, unfamiliar styles of music as they enter adulthood. The marketers have even crafted a 20 year rule by applying this knowledge -- 20 years after a major trend, or a band has hit their peak, it's time for the nostalgia tour and record sales.

And, ofcourse, having children will make someone more resistant to change, and more clingy to approaches they consider traditional....this is where the new mega-churches have stepped in to find their market niche. And, I already mentioned how fear can skew towards conservatism...the 9/11 effect for example. But fear only works temporarily, which is why the rightwing factions dependent on making machines of war have to keep tossing up new exaggerated threats to try to scare the population with.

But, politics and economics are about more than psychology. For my part, the failure of libertarian economic theory, and the lies and fraud perpetrated by Neoconservatism, have pushed me back to where I was in my early 20's.