Taxation is theft

[CPCFTW]

Still not theft...and the fact that you lump all of these things together says a great deal about you, none of it positive.

Such as?

BTW, I think you would find that most Canadians do support things like bringing all seniors out of poverty, helping people that are between jobs, and ensuring that there are affordable daycare spaces available.

I doubt that the majority of those paying taxes support these things. Or at least not in the ways that have been proposed.

I would like daycare to be affordable by creating jobs and minimizing taxation so that people have enough disposable income to pay for daycare. I would like to minimize the time people are between jobs by ensuring there are many jobs available in Canada by making Canada the most competitive business environment in the world. I would like to minimize the amount of seniors in poverty by ensuring that their children and grandchildren have sufficient incomes to help them out. What do these things say about me? That I'm patriotic and believe in rewarding hard work?

[CPCFTW]

I didn't say they should only be used for that purpose. I'm just saying that taxation is not theft: The concept of theft only means something if we have a commonly accepted definition of what constitutes ownership in the first place. This is only possible in our society through a social contract between the state and the individual that recognizes ownership rights and places certain conditions on ownership, including the payment of taxes (for whatever purpose the public as a whole agrees to be appropriate).

Taxes should be used for whatever the public agrees that they should be used for. They do not constitute theft as long as the established procedures in the social contract are followed and taxpayers are not misled.

Why should the majority be able to vote to steal from the minority? Would you say it is theft if a party was elected campaigning on the promise to seize 50% of the assets from anyone that had over 1 million in assets, and to grant those assets to the state to be redistributed to people with no assets? I guess not if that party had been elected by a majority?

Edited May 15, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Smallc]

Such as?

It speaks to a lack of empathy.

I doubt that the majority of those paying taxes support these things. Or at least not in the ways that have been proposed.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, actually. When you add up the votes of people who supported those things (and remember, even the Conservatives are doing some of the things you talk about), they far outweigh people that don't.

I would like daycare to be affordable by creating jobs and minimizing taxation so that people have enough disposable income to pay for daycare.

Unsubsidized daycare is so expensive, no one in the middle class can afford it.

I would like to minimize the time people are between jobs by ensuring there are many jobs available in Canada by making Canada the most competitive business environment in the world.

That's fine, but that doesn't mean there isn't a need for things like Employment Insurance in places where work is seasonal or harder to come by.

I would like to minimize the amount of seniors in poverty by ensuring that their children and grandchildren have sufficient incomes to help them out. What do these things say about me? That I'm patriotic and believe in rewarding hard work?

The fact that there are some seniors living in poverty means that we haven't done something right. People should have to depend on handouts from their family. They shouldn't worry about where their next meal will come from. Yes, the people who can save for retirement should be responsible and do that, but often it isn't enough, and for many, it isn't even an option. I see every day what poverty and a lack of education does to people. Something tells me you don't have much experience with that.

[Jack Weber]

Such as?

I doubt that the majority of those paying taxes support these things. Or at least not in the ways that have been proposed.

I would like daycare to be affordable by creating jobs and minimizing taxation so that people have enough disposable income to pay for daycare. I would like to minimize the time people are between jobs by ensuring there are many jobs available in Canada by making Canada the most competitive business environment in the world. I would like to minimize the amount of seniors in poverty by ensuring that their children and grandchildren have sufficient incomes to help them out. What do these things say about me? That I'm patriotic and believe in rewarding hard work?

Kory Tenycke and the rest of the dilly bars at SunTV thank you for the support...Mainly because if the ratings are anything to go by,they need the sales pitch you've just provided!

With corporate tax rates as low as they are,how are you going to make "Canada the most competative business environment in the world?"

How are you going to pay for health care by continuing to "minimize taxation"?

Edited May 15, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Smallc]

Why should the majority be able to vote to steal from the minority?

It isn't theft, so you should just stop calling it that. It makes you look foolish.

Would you say it is theft if a party was elected campaigning on the promise to seize 50% of the assets from anyone that had over 1 million in assets, and to grant those assets to the state to be redistributed to people with no assets? I guess not if that party had been elected by a majority?

That's a completely ridiculous scenario. The reality is, those who do well were either born that way, or were able to do well because of the fact that they live in a society like this one. They were given opportunities within this society that allowed them to succeed. If someone succeeds in Canada, then they owe something to Canada. The game doesn't just go one way.

[CPCFTW]

It speaks to a lack of empathy.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, actually. When you add up the votes of people who supported those things (and remember, even the Conservatives are doing some of the things you talk about), they far outweigh people that don't.

Unsubsidized daycare is so expensive, no one in the middle class can afford it.

That's fine, but that doesn't mean there isn't a need for things like Employment Insurance in places where work is seasonal or harder to come by.

The fact that there are some seniors living in poverty means that we haven't done something right. People should have to depend on handouts from their family. They shouldn't worry about where their next meal will come from. Yes, the people who can save for retirement should be responsible and do that, but often it isn't enough, and for many, it isn't even an option. I see every day what poverty and a lack of education does to people. Something tells me you don't have much experience with that.

I guess we just have different ideas on how to resolve these issues. I believe in minimizing poverty by maximizing the wealth of society. You believe in reducing the extremity of individual poverty by impoverishing more.

[Smallc]

I guess we just have different ideas on how to resolve these issues. I believe in minimizing poverty by maximizing the wealth of society.

I believe that's nothing but sloganeering.

You believe in reducing the extremity of individual poverty by impoverishing more.

You obviously have no idea what I believe.

[Jack Weber]

I guess we just have different ideas on how to resolve these issues. I believe in minimizing poverty by maximizing the wealth of society. You believe in reducing the extremity of individual poverty by impoverishing more.

Ah yes...

The "Free markets will save us all!" approach...

Erm...yeah...

[Evening Star]

Why should the majority be able to vote to steal from the minority?

It's not stealing! That's my point! Calling it stealing assumes that there is some objective right to ownership that supercedes a democratically established social contract. But I think ownership is only even a meaningful concept within the context of this social contract.

Would you say it is theft if a party was elected campaigning on the promise to seize 50% of the assets from anyone that had over 1 million in assets, and to grant those assets to the state to be redistributed to people with no assets? I guess not if that party had been elected by a majority?

I'd consider voting for them...

--

xposts I see Smallc has stepped in and made the first point more succinctly than I did.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Evening Star

[CPCFTW]

Kory Tenycke and the rest of the dilly bars at SunTV thank you for the support...Mainly because if the ratings are anything to go by,they need the sales pitch you've just provided!

With corporate tax rates as low as they are,how are you going to make "Canada the most competative business environment in the world?"

Taxes aren't the only cost of business and corporate taxes in Canada still have a ways to go. America isn't the only industrialized country in the world although the left seems to think they are the only country we should compare our corporate tax rate with.

How are you going to pay for health care by continuing to "minimize taxation"?

1. By creating jobs, thereby increasing the tax base.

2. By switching to a two tier system to reduce the costs of the public health care system.

[Jack Weber]

Taxes aren't the only cost of business and corporate taxes in Canada still have a ways to go. America isn't the only industrialized country in the world although the left seems to think they are the only country we should compare our corporate tax rate with.

1. By creating jobs, thereby increasing the tax base.

2. By switching to a two tier system to reduce the costs of the public health care system.

So,just as I thought,free marketeers want to win the race to the bottom by having us live like the Chinese....

1.How are you going to create those jobs?

2.Do you have any evidence that shows giving hard earned money to the money grubbing cabal of scum known as the "insurance industry" will provide us with more effective and cheaper health care?

[Evening Star]

Ah yes...

The "Free markets will save us all!" approach...

Erm...yeah...

Yeah, the unsupported assumption that unrestrained neoliberalism will "maximize society's wealth" and "minimize poverty" seems pretty dubious to me too.

[CPCFTW]

The entitlement mentality in this thread is sickening.

"You only succeeded because of the opportunities provided to you by this country so give me everything you worked for!!"

We all have the same opportunities. And don't give me that BS about being born into a wealthy family. If someone's family is wealthier or better connected than another, then the family has earned it. What gives you the right to freeload off of the hard work of someone else's parents? My parents aren't wealthy, but I don't bemoan those with wealthy parents who worked hard enough to provide ample opportunities for their children.

[Jack Weber]

Yeah, the unsupported assumption that unrestrained neoliberalism will "maximize society's wealth" and "minimize poverty" seems pretty dubious to me too.

The problem is that the free marketeers always claim that anything that smacks of anything less than a free market is redistributive...

That's a fair statement,however,so is their plan.It's just that it is redistributive upwards into the hands of the few...In otherwords,global neoliberalism is nothing but a modern redux of European mercantilism.That mindset led to a whole host of horrific ideas,the worst of which was the embracing of Marxism.The fact is that greedy and selfish people never learn from their mistakes and are quite prepared to make those monumental errors again and again,so long as their pockets are kept well lined.

[Jack Weber]

The entitlement mentality in this thread is sickening.

"You only succeeded because of the opportunities provided to you by this country so give me everything you worked for!!"

We all have the same opportunities. And don't give me that BS about being born into a wealthy family. If someone's family is wealthier or better connected than another, then the family has earned it. What gives you the right to freeload off of the hard work of someone else's parents? My parents aren't wealthy, but I don't bemoan those with wealthy parents who worked hard enough to provide ample opportunities for their children.

What's truly sickening is your "gimme my tax cut,get me outta here,and,screw everyone else!" approach you take to taxation...

[BubberMiley]

What nonsense. I own what I own.

The sign said, "Anybody caught trespassin' will be shot on sight."

So I jumped on the fence and I yelled at the house, "Hey! What gives you the right to put up a fence to keep me out, but to keep Mother Nature in? If God was here, he'd tell you to your face, 'Man, you're some kind of sinner.'"

[Smallc]

xposts I see Smallc has stepped in and made the first point more succinctly than I did.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to steal your thunder.

[Bryan]

What's truly sickening is your "gimme my tax cut,get me outta here,and,screw everyone else!" approach you take to taxation...

I disagree. His position is consistent: Let those who have their keeps theirs, just let me keep mine too!

[Smallc]

"You only succeeded because of the opportunities provided to you by this country so give me everything you worked for!!"

I'm doing fine and I always have been. My family is upper middle class. The household income for the three of us is very close to $150K per year where the median income per person is probably about $20K, so I'm doing fine, thanks. That doesn't mean I don't think of other people.

The reality is, you do owe society. You did well, that's great. You still owe society, and you can afford to do more for society than those that didn't do well.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Smallc

[Smallc]

I disagree. His position is consistent: Let those who have their keeps theirs, just let me keep mine too!

that assumes that somehow the wealthy and well to do are being oppressed. They aren't.

[Jack Weber]

I disagree. His position is consistent: Let those who have their keeps theirs, just let me keep mine too!

Sure it's consistent...

Consistent with neoliberal selfish and facile economic libertarianism...

Just as your phraseology is...

Edited May 15, 2011 by Jack Weber

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Taxes aren't the only cost of business and corporate taxes in Canada still have a ways to go. America isn't the only industrialized country in the world although the left seems to think they are the only country we should compare our corporate tax rate with.

We have one of the lowest effective corporate tax rates in the G8.

keep on controlling.

[Smallc]

We have one of the lowest effective corporate tax rates in the G8.

keep on controlling.

We are the lowest in the G7....not sure about the G8.

[Jack Weber]

We are the lowest in the G7....not sure about the G8.

You'll notice that he could not/would not answer any of the questions I posed to him...

[Smallc]

You'll notice that he could not/would not answer any of the questions I posed to him...

That's because he's just sloganeering.