Taxation is theft

[Smallc]

Surpluses are theft.

No they aren't and certainly not when you have a debt to pay off.

[Hydraboss]

No they aren't and certainly not when you have a debt to pay off.

Actually, they are unless they're used to pay off the debt we owe.

If they are used for new spending...theft.

[Posc Student]

I'd like to voice my opinions in a place where they will be questioned, but not gainsaid. I'm asking this because I'm a regular a non-political forum, and when discussing Canadian politics, I am literally the only one that supports Conservatives.

Also, are there are fair amount of Albertans here, or would I be wasting my time discussing Alberta provincial politics?

This forum is actually a pretty good mix. Blogging Tories and Blue Canada are two places that I go to talk with other conservatives but I enjoy the different ideological views that are here.

[Smallc]

Actually, they are unless they're used to pay off the debt we owe.

If they are used for new spending...theft.

Nope, sorry, that's just something that you think for some reason.

[Remiel]

"Taxation is theft," is so simplistic a statement that it cannot be credible.

[RNG]

"Taxation is theft," is so simplistic a statement that it cannot be credible.

"Killing is wrong" is also a simplistic statement. Is it not credible?

[Smallc]

"Killing is wrong" is also a simplistic statement. Is it not credible?

That is also far too simplistic, given that self defence is a legitimate justification for killing (both ethically and legally) in certain circumstances.

[RNG]

That is also far too simplistic, given that self defence is a legitimate justification for killing (both ethically and legally) in certain circumstances.

I guess we agree to disagree, or even worse, it is a stupid semantic argument again.

I'm not saying it isn't sometimes the lesser of two evils, but it is still wrong.

[Smallc]

I'm not saying it isn't sometimes the lesser of two evils, but it is still wrong.

And I don't see it as wrong, so no, it isn't a semantic argument.

[Remiel]

"Killing is wrong" is also a simplistic statement. Is it not credible?

It is probably simplistic, but it is definitely not " so simplistic that it cannot be credible " .

" Simplisticness " is not a function of logical structure after all, it is a function of content.

[RNG]

And I don't see it as wrong, so no, it isn't a semantic argument.

Then we agree to disagree. IMHO, killing is wrong, but, unfortunately, sometimes necessary.

[Uncle 3 dogs]

with you joining you should have a slim majority.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Charles Anthony
deleted re-copied Opening Post

[WIP]

"Taxation is theft," is so simplistic a statement that it cannot be credible.

Yes, and if a philosophical case can be made that 'taxation is theft' then an equally compelling case can be made that private property is also theft! Where does the owner get the right to lay claim to a certain piece of land? And how does he plan to enforce that restriction that limits use of the property to himself and others of his choosing? He might threaten trespassers with his shotgun, but the only realistic way to secure his property is if the threat to trespassers is backed by state authority.

And here we find that taxation is part of a social contract. Essentially, tax is payment in exchange for services from government. In this case, it is payment in exchange for legal protection, as well as police protection if a marauding gang rolls in on their motorcycles and wants to set up grow-ops on the property. I think I've reached a major breakthrough here! Motorcycle gangs are the real source of libertarianism, who will reap the rewards of no taxes, no police, no government services...just might makes right!

[August1991]

Yes, and if a philosophical case can be made that 'taxation is theft' then an equally compelling case can be made that private property is also theft! Where does the owner get the right to lay claim to a certain piece of land?

What nonsense. I own what I own.

What do you call it when you take money from a group of people who have earned it and give it to those who haven't earned it?

Jim, how do you describe a condo fee? Edited May 15, 2011 by August1991

[dre]

"Killing is wrong" is also a simplistic statement. Is it not credible?

No actually thats not a credible statement either... again because its too simplistic. Kill is right in all kinds of different circumstances.

[dre]

Yes, and if a philosophical case can be made that 'taxation is theft' then an equally compelling case can be made that private property is also theft! Where does the owner get the right to lay claim to a certain piece of land? And how does he plan to enforce that restriction that limits use of the property to himself and others of his choosing? He might threaten trespassers with his shotgun, but the only realistic way to secure his property is if the threat to trespassers is backed by state authority.

And here we find that taxation is part of a social contract. Essentially, tax is payment in exchange for services from government. In this case, it is payment in exchange for legal protection, as well as police protection if a marauding gang rolls in on their motorcycles and wants to set up grow-ops on the property. I think I've reached a major breakthrough here! Motorcycle gangs are the real source of libertarianism, who will reap the rewards of no taxes, no police, no government services...just might makes right!

Motorcycle gangs are the real source of libertarianism, who will reap the rewards of no taxes, no police, no government services...just might makes right!

Actually in Libertarian Somalia it turns out that good old fassioned pirates ended up being the marauding gang of consequence. Arrrrrrgh!

[Remiel]

What nonsense. I own what I own.

We could reasonably ask how you came to " own " it.

[Scotty]

It has always seemed odd to me that Albertans act so mean spirited towards easterners. I truly don't get it. One said to me once that he assumed we talk that way about them too, and he was surprised to hear that I've never heard any of that.

I take it you don't follow federal politics?

I've certainly seen enough sneering at Albertans on this site.

[Scotty]

Then we agree to disagree. IMHO, killing is wrong, but, unfortunately, sometimes necessary.

Like taxation!

[Scotty]

No actually thats not a credible statement either... again because its too simplistic. Kill is right in all kinds of different circumstances.

I do my best to "kill" the ants in my front yard. I pay a guy to spray stuff to "kill" the bugs and weeds. I "kill" any bug I find indoors.

[Evening Star]

Thanks, WIP. I tried to make this point before on a similar thread.

Yes, and if a philosophical case can be made that 'taxation is theft' then an equally compelling case can be made that private property is also theft! Where does the owner get the right to lay claim to a certain piece of land? And how does he plan to enforce that restriction that limits use of the property to himself and others of his choosing? He might threaten trespassers with his shotgun, but the only realistic way to secure his property is if the threat to trespassers is backed by state authority.

And here we find that taxation is part of a social contract. Essentially, tax is payment in exchange for services from government. In this case, it is payment in exchange for legal protection, as well as police protection if a marauding gang rolls in on their motorcycles and wants to set up grow-ops on the property. I think I've reached a major breakthrough here! Motorcycle gangs are the real source of libertarianism, who will reap the rewards of no taxes, no police, no government services...just might makes right!

Edited May 15, 2011 by Evening Star

[Evening Star]

What nonsense. I own what I own.

What "ownership" means in an organized capitalist society, though, is that the state grants, recognizes, and protects certain rights of yours in relation to a piece of property. It is not a meaningful concept otherwise. And so it is by the same token fair for the state to place certain conditions on this, including e.g. the requirement to pay taxes.

[CPCFTW]

Thanks, WIP. I tried to make this point before on a similar thread, to the sound of crickets.

So you're saying taxes should be used for the protection and defense of property? For example to buy jet fighters and build prisons to house criminals? Agreed.

It is only theft when taxes used to redistribute income for social causes such as to provide daycare for other people's kids or increased pensions for other people's grandparents, or as EI and welfare payments to people who choose not to work.

The majority don't agree to the Layton social contract.

[Smallc]

It is only theft when taxes used to redistribute income for social causes such as to provide daycare for other people's kids or increased pensions for other people's grandparents, or as EI and welfare payments to people who choose not to work.

Still not theft...and the fact that you lump all of these things together says a great deal about you, none of it positive.

BTW, I think you would find that most Canadians do support things like bringing all seniors out of poverty, helping people that are between jobs, and ensuring that there are affordable daycare spaces available.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Smallc

[Evening Star]

I didn't say they should only be used for that purpose. I'm just saying that taxation is not theft: The concept of theft only means something if we have a commonly accepted definition of what constitutes ownership in the first place. This is only possible in our society through a social contract between the state and the individual that recognizes ownership rights and places certain conditions on ownership, including the payment of taxes (for whatever purpose the public as a whole agrees to be appropriate).

Taxes should be used for whatever the public agrees that they should be used for. They do not constitute theft as long as the established procedures in the social contract are followed and taxpayers are not misled.

So you're saying taxes should be used for the protection and defense of property? For example to buy jet fighters and build prisons to house criminals? Agreed.

It is only theft when taxes used to redistribute income for social causes such as to provide daycare for other people's kids or increased pensions for other people's grandparents, or as EI and welfare payments to people who choose not to work.

The majority don't agree to the Layton social contract.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Evening Star