The Bible

[Guest Manny]

There is research showing that a persons emotional state, attitude whether they are positive or negative, happy or depressed has a significant impact on the outcome of their health. There is a correlation between a persons belief that they will become well again, and the success of their treatment and this is now becoming recognized my medical professionals. It's known that cancer patients who are very depressed are the ones who die quickest, and with most certainty. New programs are being developed in hospitals to address the patients emotional and "spiritual" needs, again reinforcing the notion that sometimes it's what we believe that matters more, than what is.

[cybercoma]

But the thing is.....it's become all faith-based (for atheists).

Contrary to the false equivalent you're trying to build, no it hasn't. Medical technologies and medicine do not go to market until they've met strict reason-based requirements. They don't just allow doctors to get their licenses by praying for patients. There's a difference between undergoing cancer therapy and getting faith-based treatments. It cost Steve Jobs his life when he had a very curable form of cancer. The difference with reason-based medicine is that the results of trials are testable and repeatable. There has never been a faith-based healing practice that has passed the scrutiny of controlled scientific conditions.

So if you're saying "atheists" have faith in the scientific method to find cures that work, then you're right. It's not just atheists either. The vast majority of Christians "believe" in the ability of the scientific method to work. Faith-based medicine requires one to believe against all evidence that something will work and when it doesn't completely ignore that fact by attributing the loss of a loved one to some greater "plan."

Edited July 27, 2012 by cybercoma

[Guest Manny]

It cost Steve Jobs his life when he had a very curable form of cancer.

I don't know all about what Steve Jobs tried to do or what he went through in his treatments, but pancreatic cancer is one of the deadliest there is. Very low survival rate, typically less than 10 percent. Some data shows only 3%.

[cybercoma]

I don't know all about what Steve Jobs tried to do or what he went through in his treatments, but pancreatic cancer is one of the deadliest there is. Very low survival rate, typically less than 10 percent. Some data shows only 3%.

This is true, but take a look through this article.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2011/10/24/steve-jobs-cancer-treatment-regrets/

The important bit...

[T]he form of pancreatic cancer from which Jobs suffered (a neuroendocrine islet tumor) was one of the 5% or so that are slow growing and most likely to be cured.

But Jobs refused surgery after diagnosis and for nine months after, favoring instead dietary treatments and other alternative methods.

Edited July 27, 2012 by cybercoma

[Guest Manny]

This is true, but take a look through this article.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2011/10/24/steve-jobs-cancer-treatment-regrets/

The important bit...

Didn't know that. Sounds like he really got some bad advice!

[cybercoma]

Didn't know that. Sounds like he really got some bad advice!

I blame this emerging culture of false equivalents, where people seem to think they can choose their facts, where one opinion is supposedly equal to another. People like betsy perpetuate this -- at best ridiculous, at worst dangerous -- notion by saying things like people have "faith" in science, as though it's the same as having faith in a shaman healer.

[Guest American Woman]

Didn't know that. Sounds like he really got some bad advice!

Who did he get bad advice from? It sounds as if putting off surgery was his decision - in spite of what others were telling him.

[betsy]

There is research showing that a persons emotional state, attitude whether they are positive or negative, happy or depressed has a significant impact on the outcome of their health. There is a correlation between a persons belief that they will become well again, and the success of their treatment and this is now becoming recognized my medical professionals. It's known that cancer patients who are very depressed are the ones who die quickest, and with most certainty. New programs are being developed in hospitals to address the patients emotional and "spiritual" needs, again reinforcing the notion that sometimes it's what we believe that matters more, than what is.

I can only speak for myself. But somehow I see how the spiritual enters into it. Being a born-again Christian had dramatically changed my outlook in life....my priorities. I find that I'm not that stressed (you know, those serious stress when you feel time seems to be running out, or that you failed to reach what you want, to get what you want etc..,).....and I feel a kind of tranquil peace deep in my heart. It must be that when I decided to hand over my life to God, to do as He pleases with it...to trust Him, it's like a heavy burden has been lifted from my shoulders. I don't feel depressed anymore.

Stress can cause a lot of havoc on one's health.

Will it help me avoid things like cancer? I don't know.....but it's having that feeling of humble acceptance, come what may. I pray that He strengthens me, come what may.

[Bonam]

I can only speak for myself. But somehow I see how the spiritual enters into it. Being a born-again Christian had dramatically changed my outlook in life....my priorities. I find that I'm not that stressed (you know, those serious stress when you feel time seems to be running out, or that you failed to reach what you want, to get what you want etc..,).....and I feel a kind of tranquil peace deep in my heart.

Good for you. Some people may benefit from some kind of religion or spirituality to reduce their stress and feel more at peace, others may not. But what does any of that have to do with trying to convince other people about the "scientific facts" in your religion's particular flavor of ancient heavily edited book?

Edited July 28, 2012 by Bonam

[betsy]

Good for you. Some people may benefit from some kind of religion or spirituality to reduce their stress and feel more at peace, others may not. But what does any of that have to do with trying to convince other people about the "scientific facts" in your religion's particular flavor of ancient heavily edited book?

The purpose(s) of this topic is explained on the very first post. Who's the most likely to engage a Christian in a debate about the reality of his God - usually it's those who don't believe in the existence of God or gods. Where will he most likely encounter some ideas which try to present themselves as "scientific facts" that try to negate or sow doubt in his mind about the reality of his God? In secular classrooms and universities.

Again, how can you discuss and reason with faith to someone who doesn't believe in religion?

The forum(s) is a good example of some of the different kinds of answers you'd get if you invoke God.

If I just post a topic here that simply state my faith in the existence of God, period - you think this topic will get this mileage?

As for benefits, yoga comes to mind. Some people may benefit from yoga to reduce their stress and feel more at peace, others may not. How does one know he won't benefit at all unless he tries yoga. How does one gets the benefits from yoga if he doesn't even know how to do yoga the proper way....or understand its principles?

As for the facts that's supported by science - well, they're there. And they're there for a reason. Same way that science is here for a reason. Why shouldn't we use them?

Edited July 28, 2012 by betsy

[betsy]

Good for you. Some people may benefit from some kind of religion or spirituality to reduce their stress and feel more at peace, others may not.

You've left out this part - which I think is the most important aspect why stress is greatly reduced:

"and I feel a kind of tranquil peace deep in my heart. It must be that when I decided to hand over my life to God, to do as He pleases with it...to trust Him, it's like a heavy burden has been lifted from my shoulders. I don't feel depressed anymore.

Stress can cause a lot of havoc on one's health."

I'm sure that feeling of having a heavy burden lifted off from one's shoulders is also experienced by other Christians who've decided to trust and leave eveything in God's hands. It is an act of handing the responsibility to someone else - in our case, to our God - trusting in His promises.

What is the cause of most, if not all stress? It's having to deal with somethings you have no control over. We have no real control over our health, our finances, our aspirations, our families etc., - we can only try.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm sure that feeling of having a heavy burden lifted off from one's shoulders is also experienced by other Christians ....

I'm sure the same feeling has been experienced by Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, et al. Do you acknowledge that?

Edited July 28, 2012 by American Woman

[betsy]

I'm sure the same feeling has been experienced by Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, et al. Do you acknowledge that?

I can only acknowledge something I do understand and had experienced - such as my God and His promises, and the way He does "talk" to His children - as others give through their testimonies.

Trust in Him, is explicitly stated. I understand that this may sound strange to those who don't have the faith.

I don't know if I'd already written about this incident here, but let me recount what recently happened:

I was having doubts about engaging in heated debates in forums, my simple way of spreading the Gospel. Am I doing more harm than good in the sense that I'm pushing others away from religion? One recent morning as I was preparing to leave to attend a workshop (Christian), this nagging doubt had me asking God if I'm doing the right thing....that I'm afraid I'm turning people off. So I went to the workshop.

As I was reading a pamphlet waiting for the session to start, the speaker (who sounded like John Goodman), suddenly boomed:

"ARE YOU SCARED YOU ARE TURNING PEOPLE OFF?" Boy, did that really get my attention!

Then the speaker showed a picture of a light switch which was set on "off" on the big screen. He asked for a volunteer, somebody volunteered. He asked the volunteer to "switch the light off." Of course the volunteer tried but couldn't switch it off.

His message was, you can't turn off someone who's already off.

So, wow! Talk about fast reply. That should've sufficed. Unfortunately, around evening at home, I started having my doubts again. Was that incident about the question and the light switch meant as an answer? By the time I went to bed, I seemd to be back to square one - doubting my involvement in heated religion debates.

The next morning, first thing I usually do was read from the Bible. When I opened the Bible, the marked page was on LUKE 20: 39-47 "The Question of David's Son"

39 Then certain of the scribes answering said, Master, thou hast well said. 40 And after that they durst not ask him any question at all.

41 And he said unto them, How say they that Christ is David's son?

42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

44 David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?

45 Then in the audience of all the people he said unto his disciples,

46 Beware of the scribes, which desire to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the markets, and the highest seats in the synagogues, and the chief rooms at feasts;

47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

As I read, realization suddenly hit me.

Jesus was engaged in the middle of a debate. He was also aggressive about it since the scribes did not ask any further questions - and yet, Jesus still pursued the matter. And like in forum debates, He was quoting His source - this one was the Book of Psalms.

My doubt was gone.

Edited July 28, 2012 by betsy

[cybercoma]

You know Muslims and Jews believe in the same God, right?

[wyly]

You know Muslims and Jews believe in the same God, right?

and just to mess with betsy's head, jews and christians are muslims too....

muslim in arabic literally means "one who submits to god"...

[Guest American Woman]

I can only acknowledge something I do understand and had experienced -

You're expecting others to understand and give Christianity - not God, but Christianity - a chance based on your experiences; yet you are wholeheartedly saying that you cannot acknowledge or understand anything that you have not experienced; ie: another person's beliefs re: God. Seems to me you are saying that others could/should look to Christianity to find the same peace you have, but why should they do that, acknowledge that, understand that's possible, as you refuse to acknowledge and understand something you haven't experienced?

You do realize that there's a difference between Christian beliefs and believing in God, right? Seems to me all one has to do to get the feeling you describe - 'let go and let God' - is believe in God. So how can you not acknowledge and/or understand that others - Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al have found that same peace in their beliefs?

"ARE YOU SCARED YOU ARE TURNING PEOPLE OFF?" Boy, did that really get my attention!

Then the speaker showed a picture of a light switch which was set on "off" on the big screen. He asked for a volunteer, somebody volunteered. He asked the volunteer to "switch the light off." Of course the volunteer tried but couldn't switch it off.

His message was, you can't turn off someone who's already off.

That's a black and white scenario, but many people's beliefs aren't black and white. You can, of course, switch off a dimmer switch set on low - just as you can turn people off who are questioning such beliefs.

As I read, realization suddenly hit me.

Jesus was engaged in the middle of a debate. He was also aggressive about it since the scribes did not ask any further questions - and yet, Jesus still pursued the matter. And like in forum debates, He was quoting His source - this one was the Book of Psalms.

My doubt was gone.

Your personal doubt may be gone, but that's all it is; your personal doubt. That doesn't mean you are right - and I doubt if you would support a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist who feels the same way. Or would you?

[betsy]

You're expecting others to understand and give Christianity - not God, but Christianity - a chance based on your experiences

yet you are wholeheartedly saying that you cannot acknowledge or understand anything that you have not experienced; ie: another person's beliefs re: God.

exactly. Another person's belief. You want me to speculate. Wouldn't it best for you to talk to someone from a different religion and ask him how he feels?

Seems to me you are saying that others could/should look to Christianity to find the same peace you have, but why should they do that, acknowledge that, understand that's possible, as you refuse to acknowledge and understand something you haven't experienced?

Well they don't have to acknowledge or embrace my religion if they don't want to. All I'm doing is stating how my God makes me feel. I'm stating my experience. The rest is up to them.

You do realize that there's a difference between Christian beliefs and believing in God, right?

To you perhaps....but I don't see any difference in mine.

Seems to me all one has to do to get the feeling you describe - 'let go and let God' - is believe in God.

It goes deeper than that. I was born and raised a Christian all my life....and yet I've never experienced how I feel now until I've re-discovered Christ, try to study and understand the Bible. Wished I'd been born again sooner, and not wasted those years.

So how can you not acknowledge and/or understand that others - Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al have found that same peace in their beliefs?

Look, some Christians have not found the same peace that I'm feeling now. I'm an example to that....having been born and raised a Christian.

That's a black and white scenario, but many people's beliefs aren't black and white. You can, of course, switch off a dimmer switch set on low - just as you can turn people off who are questioning such beliefs.

What can I say? We are not supposed to force people into belief. Belief that's forced isn't true belief. So there's no point in forcing anyone. The opportunity to have God is always open - all one needs to do is accept Him into your life.

Only God knows what's truly in the heart. When one believes truly, she/he will automatically sincerely try to follow the teachings of Christ (that's when the change and transformation will start to happen in outlook, attitude, frame of mind)...which will hopefully lead us to grow into "maturity" as Christians.

I'm not saying that once you become a born-again, that there'll be no more hardships and trials. Probably there'll be even more of those .....but it's the outlook of the Christian who'll go through those hardships and trials, the strength, the no-fear attitude.....the ability to find joy even in the midst of those hardships....those are the amazing capabilities of a Christian who'd trustingly handed eveything to God.

That's one thing I failed to mention above. That kind of joyful feeling that comes from within.

Your personal doubt may be gone, but that's all it is; your personal doubt. That doesn't mean you are right - and I doubt if you would support a Muslim, Jew, Buddhist who feels the same way. Or would you?

If they say they're happy the way they are....that they're at peace....who am I to say nay. It's their life. It's their choice.

We've all been given our free will. Whether religious or not.

Edited July 28, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

exactly. Another person's belief. You want me to speculate. Wouldn't it best for you to talk to someone from a different religion and ask him how he feels?

No, because I'm not asking you how they feel or even how you think they feel; I'm asking you if you can accept that another person, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, gets the same feeling that you have as a born-again Christian. My life isn't so sheltered that I have never come in contact with how someone from another religion feels.

So again. Do you accept that someone from a different faith feels the same way you do? It's not a difficult question. It's not about how you think they feel. I'm asking if you accept that they feel the same way you do.

It goes deeper than that. I was born and raised a Christian all my life....and yet I've never experienced how I feel now until I've re-discovered Christ, try to study and understand the Bible. Wished I'd been born again sooner, and not wasted those years.

Why would someone have to be "born again," rather than feel that way right from the get-go? And again, that goes for all faiths, not just Christianity.

Look, some Christians have not found the same peace that I'm feeling now. I'm an example to that....having been born and raised a Christian.

I understand that and I haven't indicated otherwise. It seems to me that even as you want to have discussions about religion, you dance around what other people say. It makes me feel as if you don't want to discuss it or hear what others have to say - but rather that you want a platform from which to say what you want to say. Simple as that.

What can I say? We are not supposed to force people into belief. Belief that's forced isn't true belief. So there's no point in forcing anyone. The opportunity to have God is always open - all one needs to do is accept Him into your life.

And one needn't be a Christian to do that.

I'm not saying that once you become a born-again, that there'll be no more hardships and trials. Probably there'll be even more of those .....but it's the outlook of the Christian who'll go through those hardships and trials, the strength, the no-fear attitude.....the ability to find joy even in the midst of those hardships....those are the amazing capabilities of a Christian who'd trustingly handed eveything to God.

Not just a Christian, which is my point. You're speaking of a belief in God, not Christianity. One needn't be a Christian to have those "amazing capabilities;" Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al can all feel the same way. In fact, one need to only have a joy and feeling of appreciation for life.

But religiously speaking, you keep making this about "Christianity," as it's more a belief in God.

That's one thing I failed to mention above. That kind of joyful feeling that comes from within.

Again, people from all walks of life, religious or otherwise, can - and do - experience that kind of joyful feeling from within. This idea that you think it's unique to Christians is what I'm taking issue with.

If they say they're happy the way they are....that they're at peace....who am I to say nay. It's their life. It's their choice.

We've all been given our free will. Whether religious or not.

It took awhile to get there, but it seems to me you are acknowledging that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al, as well as atheists, can be just as at peace with life as you are - and that one needn't be a Christian to accept God in their lives.

[betsy]

No, because I'm not asking you how they feel or even how you think they feel; I'm asking you if you can accept that another person, a Jew, a Muslim, a Buddhist, gets the same feeling that you have as a born-again Christian. My life isn't so sheltered that I have never come in contact with how someone from another religion feels.

So again. Do you accept that someone from a different faith feels the same way you do? It's not a difficult question. It's not about how you think they feel. I'm asking if you accept that they feel the same way you do.

Why would someone have to be "born again," rather than feel that way right from the get-go? And again, that goes for all faiths, not just Christianity.

I understand that and I haven't indicated otherwise. It seems to me that even as you want to have discussions about religion, you dance around what other people say. It makes me feel as if you don't want to discuss it or hear what others have to say - but rather that you want a platform from which to say what you want to say. Simple as that.

And one needn't be a Christian to do that.

Not just a Christian, which is my point. You're speaking of a belief in God, not Christianity. One needn't be a Christian to have those "amazing capabilities;" Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al can all feel the same way. In fact, one need to only have a joy and feeling of appreciation for life.

But religiously speaking, you keep making this about "Christianity," as it's more a belief in God.

Again, people from all walks of life, religious or otherwise, can - and do - experience that kind of joyful feeling from within. This idea that you think it's unique to Christians is what I'm taking issue with.

It took awhile to get there, but it seems to me you are acknowledging that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al, as well as atheists, can be just as at peace with life as you are - and that one needn't be a Christian to accept God in their lives.

Well I can't help but make it into Christianity since I'm speaking about my own experience - tranquil peace and inner joy - brought on by my God.

Well I guess I've answered your question. Let me print it again.

If they say they're happy the way they are....that they're at peace....who am I to say nay. It's their life. It's their choice. We've all been given our free will. Whether religious or not.

Edited July 28, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

Well I can't help but make it into Christianity since I'm speaking about my own experience as a Christian.

And again. I wasn't asking you about your experience as a Christian; I was asking you if you accept that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al have found the same fulfillment with God that you have.

Well I guess I've answered your question. Let me print it again.

If they say they're happy the way they are....that they're at peace....who am I to say nay. It's their life. It's their choice. We've all been given our free will. Whether religious or not.

So you accept that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al. find the same fulfillment that you have found in God; you do not believe that it's only possible through Christianity.

[betsy]

And again. I wasn't asking you about your experience as a Christian; I was asking you if you accept that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al have found the same fulfillment with God that you have.

So you accept that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al. find the same fulfillment that you have found in God; you do not believe that it's only possible through Christianity.

If they say they do, who am I to argue? They know themselves more than I do.

I asked a young new mother, "is it true the sudden surge of maternal instinct as soon as you saw your newborn?" She said, "the amazing thing is that both me and my husband didn't. We just both looked at this baby....and later on the feeling grew." Other mothers swear that there's an instant surge. This must be a poor analogy I'm trying to make here....

Besides, who can measure "the same fulfillment" to compare with one another's? It's not like it's something we can both hold in our hands and weigh and compare. So if they say they have the fulfillment and feel at peace, how can I say, "no you don't?" I'll just say, "okay," and leave it at that.

Edited July 28, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

If they say they do, who am I to argue? They know themselves more than I do.

I asked a young new mother, "is it true the sudden surge of maternal instinct as soon as you saw your newborn?" She said, "the amazing thing is that both me and my husband didn't. We just both looked at this baby....and later on the feeling grew." Other mothers swear that there's an instant surge. This must be a poor analogy I'm trying to make here....

Besides, who can measure "the same fulfillment" to compare with one another's? It's not like it's something we can both hold in our hands and weigh and compare. So if they say they have the fulfillment and feel at peace, how can I say, "no you don't?" I'll just say, "okay," and leave it at that.

You are really being evasive about the question I raised; this is what you said previously - "I'm sure that feeling of having a heavy burden lifted off from one's shoulders is also experienced by other Christians who've decided to trust and leave eveything in God's hands."

So you are sure that other Christians have experienced the same feeling you have - but you can't be sure Jews, Muslims, or Buddhists et al have because "it's not like it's something we can ... hold in our hands and weigh and compare."

So how can you be sure that other Christians have experienced the same thing? - surely you can't hold their feelings in your hand and measure them.

So using your words now, are you also "sure that feeling of having a heavy burden lifted off from one's shoulders is also experienced by [Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, et al] who've decided to trust and leave eveything in God's hands" - or are you no longer sure other Christians have experienced "that feeling?"

Edited July 28, 2012 by American Woman

[betsy]

You are really being evasive about the question I raised; this is what you said previously - "I'm sure that feeling of having a heavy burden lifted off from one's shoulders is also experienced by other Christians who've decided to trust and leave eveything in God's hands."

So you are sure that other Christians have experienced the same feeling you have - but you can't be sure Jews, Muslims, or Buddhists et al have because "it's not like it's something we can ... hold in our hands and weigh and compare."

So how can you be sure that other Christians have experienced the same thing? - surely you can't hold their feelings in your hand and measure them.

Have you ever attended a Baptist service? We share testimonies, and/or something we wish to thank for.

A fellowship follows after service (some churches have potluck lunches, or snacks) the purpose of which is to share with one another. Born again Christians usually freely talk with fellow-Christians about their epiphany or spiritual experiences. We understand one another...what we mean when talking about spiritual experiences.

But of course, we cannot compare the EXACT measurement of our fulfillment/emotions. We are all humans after all, and being a Christian doesn't exempt us from anything that may beset a human being. It will be a constant battle to try to remain steadfast in our faith, and focused so as not to go astray.

However, I don't think it is hard to imagine the kind of freedom and relief one would feel when a heavy load is lifted off one's shoulders. When one tells God, "I've done all I can Lord....I leave everything to you. Do as you will."

Speaking of that, I've had an experience (and it involves my Boss too). I used to work for her before but was offered a fulltime position by another employer. After about a year and a half, my position got scaled back to part-time because of the economic problems. I thought about seeing my former Boss....but I wasn't sure how to approach her about getting some work to fill up my week. So I joined the Baptist group who visits that place once a month. Well, when she saw me and found out about my situation, she readily offered me a job - she'll work around my schedule. So I blurted to her, "You are the answer to my prayer." And then she confided too that the night before, she was praying to God to find someone whom she can trust and she told me that she thought about me.

I mean....it's that way with some of us Christians.

Where I work, a couple of fellow workers (including our Boss) are Christians, though we belong in different denominations. The camaraderie we share with one another when we talk about God is so....refreshing (for lack of better word). One of my co-workers had a hard life, and suffered from depression and was suicidal at a point until she became a born again, and I would never have guessed it if she didn't tell me.

The only atheist co-worker on the other hand seems to always have something negative to say about everything and everyone. I tried talking to her about God...and she confided what got her disillusioned about religion. She is a nice person though....she suffered a lot too.

Hopefully she'll find her way back to God. I feel optimistic. She knows how I easily talk about God...and the last time we worked together, she asked to have coffee with me.

Edited July 29, 2012 by betsy

[Guest American Woman]

Have you ever attended a Baptist service? We share testimonies, and/or something we wish to thank for.

Have you ever stepped outside of your own little world? Others speak of their feelings, their beliefs, too. There's a whole world out there. You obviously have access to the internet, so perhaps you should use it to educate yourself if you honestly have no knowledge of life outside of Baptists and/or Christianity.

At any rate, from what you are now saying, "Christians" actually means "Baptists;" you are sure that other Baptists have felt what you feel - because you evidently can hold their feelings in your hand and weigh them.

A fellowship follows after service (some churches have potluck lunches, or snacks) the purpose of which is to share with one another. Born again Christians usually freely talk with fellow-Christians about their epiphany or spiritual experiences. We understand one another...what we mean when talking about spiritual experiences.

So you can't "understand" anyone outside of your little Baptist circle? Is that what you're saying?

But of course, we cannot compare the EXACT measurement of our fulfillment/emotions. We are all humans after all, and being a Christian doesn't exempt us from anything that may beset a human being. It will be a constant battle to try to remain steadfast in our faith, and focused so as not to go astray.

So are you now saying that you aren't "sure" that others have felt the same thing you feel? As I said, you seem to be dancing all over the issue.

However, I don't think it is hard to imagine [emphasis mine] the kind of freedom and relief one would feel when a heavy load is lifted off one's shoulders. When one tells God, "I've done all I can Lord....I leave everything to you. Do as you will."

So you can imagine that Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists have felt what you feel?

A direct answer to the question would be most appropriate, but I have the feeling you're going to continue your dance - which tells me all I need to know.

-----------------------------------------

Speaking of that, I've had an experience (and it involves my Boss too). I used to work for her before but was offered a fulltime position by another employer. After about a year and a half, my position got scaled back to part-time because of the economic problems. I thought about seeing my former Boss....but I wasn't sure how to approach her about getting some work to fill up my week. So I joined the Baptist group who visits that place once a month. Well, when she saw me and found out about my situation, she readily offered me a job - she'll work around my schedule. So I blurted to her, "You are the answer to my prayer." And then she confided too that the night before, she was praying to God to find someone whom she can trust and she told me that she thought about me.

I mean....it's that way with some of us Christians.

Wow. That is so something that couldn't happen to anyone but a Christian, eh?

I've now accepted that you will never directly answer my question, which actually does answer it for me.

[cybercoma]

She can't answer your questions because she can't question her faith. You know this.