GostHacked Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 Drug abuse and alcoholism are not diseases...they are choices. I get tired of everyone who has a problem rationalize it by calling it a disease. I've never done heroin in my life. If I start I may become addicted. If I become addicted...is it a disease, or the result of a bad decision. I would say it isn't a disease, but it has become an acceptable excuse. Ever know an alcoholic? Ever know a drug addict? Initially it is a choice, but it gets to the point where it takes you over. People make bad choices, if they want help, are we just going to sit idly by? I have a close friend who has a problem with the drink, me and others have approached him about it, but until he is ready, we really can't do much for him. But we will be there when he is looking and needing the help. Quote
jacee Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 What results is Harper looking for for our money and how will the results be tracked and reported to us? I think the new crime bill should be implemented via a surtax on the wealthy if they care about it so much. Quote
Scotty Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 I agree with the poster speaking about the Judges discretion. However, what if that argument was expanded to the death penalty???? Why should parliament take away the judges discretion in that sphere????? The mandatory life sentence was the trade-off the Liberals gave for eliminating the death penalty. There was a lot of opposition to getting rid of the noose and a lot of people dwelling on murderers who were released early after serving only a few years of a short sentence. That's why we get mandatory life and mandatory minimums that have to be served. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 You have a severe fail on what a Judge has to know or does know. 10yrs minimum , must know most laws,severe screening process (one black mark and rejected).......and so on. Which does not detract from what I said. You can't teach 'justice'. Justice is a concept and it's based on society's feelings during a given point in time. Ie, what was considered 'just' a century ago likely would not be now. There is no reason to suggest a judge has a better concept of justice than I do. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 Nope , he is referring to mob rule and vengeance , justice does not have emotions. Justice stands on its own without regard to emotions or laws. A guy kills a priest and steels a candelabra, runs outside and is hit by lightning. That's justice for you. Doesn't even need humans. What would have been justice for Osama bin Laden? Take him up in a helicopter to the same height as the world trade centre, set him on fire, and push him out the door. Barbaric? Perhaps, but imho, quite just. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth set out our society's understanding of justice long ago. And while we've grown and now take a lot of things into consideration, when it comes to the central idea of what constitutes justice, we still believe the punishment should fit the crime. And that has little or nothing to do with who pronounces sentence, or even if it's done legally. If Paul Bernardo, instead of being caught by the police, was caught by the father of one of his victims, and hanged, who would say that was an injustice? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
cybercoma Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 Isn't it ironic that the people who seem to have the biggest problem with our justice system also seem to know the least about it? Quote
ninjandrew Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 I've only been here for a short while. But, It is clear that you ignore scientific information to support bad policy that ignores the reality of the situation. How ideological of you. Can you expand on that? I like the idea that less prisons and shorter sentences could be more beneficial, if thats what youre suggesting. Quote "Everything in moderation, including moderation." -- Socrates
Scotty Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 I've only been here for a short while. But, It is clear that you ignore scientific information to support bad policy that ignores the reality of the situation. How ideological of you. Scientific information? Criminology, ie, the psychology of crime, is a soft science, and at best, makes educated guesses. We have too much fraud in Canada. Why? Because the police don't invest much effort into combating it. Why? Because they regard it as a waste of time given the generally lax sentences imposed by courts. Yet these people ruin lives, and if caught, generally wind up with a short sentence and a small fine. I was reading up on ID theft today. A number of individuals caught committing ID theft and fraud have been sentenced in the US to as much as 20 years in prison. To my knowledge, no one in Canada has ever gone to prison for ID theft. Embezzle a million bucks in Canada and you'll probably get, at most, a few months in jail - and out early on parole. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
cybercoma Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 Can you expand on that? I like the idea that less prisons and shorter sentences could be more beneficial, if thats what youre suggesting. Why do you make things up like this? Just because people are against mandatory minimums and "super" prisons that doesn't mean they're advocating for shorter sentences and less prisons. Quote
ninjandrew Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 Why do you make things up like this? Just because people are against mandatory minimums and "super" prisons that doesn't mean they're advocating for shorter sentences and less prisons. I didnt make anything up. If you read his full post, including his quote, it seems he's suggesting that some scientific information states more prisons and longer sentences wont do anything. Im not trying to be a jerk. Im just hoping its true. Quote "Everything in moderation, including moderation." -- Socrates
cybercoma Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 I didnt make anything up. If you read his full post, including his quote, it seems he's suggesting that some scientific information states more prisons and longer sentences wont do anything. Im not trying to be a jerk. Im just hoping its true. I'm just suggesting that there's the option that our sentencing and prisons do not need to be changed, considering crime has been falling. It's not an either or thing. Quote
jacee Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 Now if harper was to crack down on white collar crime he would have my attention. However with his "if you don't get caught it isn't a crime" attitude, that isn't very likely. Quote
Scotty Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) You say that like it's a bad thing and not, you know, the whole point of an impartial judiciary. The ideal of 'impartial' is good, but it refers to impartial with regard to guilt or innocence, not with regard to justice or injustice. Unfortunately, the way our system works, impartiality to justice - or its lack - is a requirement, as well. Edited May 11, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 What results is Harper looking for for our money and how will the results be tracked and reported to us? The system was changed a generation ago to be softer, kinder, and gentler. The result was a tripling of violent crime. Did you get a report on that? I'm thinking probably not. I think the new crime bill should be implemented via a surtax on the wealthy if they care about it so much. The wealthy don't give a crap about crime. The wealthy have limousines and door guards and alarms. It's the people stuck taking buses and walking on streets and doing their own errands who worry. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 Why do you make things up like this? Just because people are against mandatory minimums and "super" prisons that doesn't mean they're advocating for shorter sentences and less prisons. You are, in fact, advocating for the hug-a-thug-system implemented a generation ago which caused crime to skyrocket, all while Corrections Canada lied about the recidivism rate. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 I'm just suggesting that there's the option that our sentencing and prisons do not need to be changed, considering crime has been falling. It's not an either or thing. Even if crime were falling, and there really isn't any evidence of that, given Stats Canada's victims survey, justice remains a concept most Canadians are attached to. If someone hurts someone we want them to be sufficiently punished. You seem to feel, well, even if people get away with a slap on the wrist, hey, there's less crime! Not good enough! Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
RNG Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) The system was changed a generation ago to be softer, kinder, and gentler. The result was a tripling of violent crime. Did you get a report on that? I'm thinking probably not. I call bull on that one. I have tried to search this on google but most things I find require a paid subscription. But many people I admire and respect say you are wrong. So give us a link. And crime stats have been dropping for years, according to the Calgary Herald and the Vancouver Sun. So where's your non-anecdotal data? Edited May 10, 2011 by RNG Quote The government can't give anything to anyone without having first taken it from someone else.
RNG Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 Just one of many google hits for "crime rates in canada". http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/[email protected]?iid=57 Quote The government can't give anything to anyone without having first taken it from someone else.
guyser Posted May 10, 2011 Report Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) The result was a tripling of violent crime. Even if crime were falling, and there really isn't any evidence of that, given Stats Canada's victims survey which caused crime to skyrocket, Comedy gold ! This link is old (2006) but the facts are there for all to see, and brother crime is not increasing. Step away from the kool aid. http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/85-002-x2007005-eng.pdf Edited May 10, 2011 by guyser Quote
jacee Posted May 11, 2011 Report Posted May 11, 2011 The wealthy don't give a crap about crime. The wealthy have limousines and door guards and alarms. It's the people stuck taking buses and walking on streets and doing their own errands who worry. Funny, aren't they the well heeled and paranoid Harper voters that are so big on spending other people's money on the if-you-build-them-they-will-come superjails bill? I figure this is Harper's homes-for-the-homeless program. However, it would be cheaper (for us) to just pay for housing. ;-) Sure Harper's paying off his election debt to the wealthy. Quote
RNG Posted May 11, 2011 Report Posted May 11, 2011 Funny, aren't they the well heeled and paranoid Harper voters that are so big on spending other people's money on the if-you-build-them-they-will-come superjails bill? I figure this is Harper's homes-for-the-homeless program. However, it would be cheaper (for us) to just pay for housing. ;-) Sure Harper's paying off his election debt to the wealthy. Come on - it has always been the left that takes great pride in spending other people's money. Quote The government can't give anything to anyone without having first taken it from someone else.
MiddleClassCentrist Posted May 11, 2011 Report Posted May 11, 2011 Come on - it has always been the left that takes great pride in spending other people's money. They all spend our money and take pride in doing so. Conservatives spend money on military, jails and can reduce taxes for the wealthy. NDs spend money on social programs, environment and can reduce taxes for the working class. Liberals spend money on a mix of the above. Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
MiddleClassCentrist Posted May 11, 2011 Report Posted May 11, 2011 Abortion becomes a grey area in Canada. Not making it legal but, not allowing it. Crime rate drops over time. Coincidence? Maybe. ---- Now I see it. The jails are prepping for the hidden Conservative push to ban abortion! (evil left wing conspiracy theory generated) I should go into sensationalist and biased journalism... My conservative inside wonders, if only I could make money doing it. Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
bloodyminded Posted May 11, 2011 Report Posted May 11, 2011 In most crimes against persons or their property retribution is the only justice victims will ever get. If I were a victim of a brutal assault that affected me for life, emphasis on rehabilitating the criminal would be an additional assault and an insult. Unless you'd care at all that future victimizations of other people might be avoided through a rehabilitative process. Then you might actually support it, and realize it's not all about you. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Sir Bandelot Posted May 11, 2011 Report Posted May 11, 2011 Unless you'd care at all that future victimizations of other people might be avoided through a rehabilitative process. Then you might actually support it, and realize it's not all about you. But there's no guarantee that will happen. It depends on whether you believe, that criminals are made, not born. I wonder what Harper's CPC would vote on that. Quote
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