What will be the Reforms next Holy Grail

[Mr.Canada]

First of all, the majority of Canadians did no such thing. Out of 60% of the voters, 40% of them approved and accepted his policy. That means roughly 25% of all voting Canadians approved and accepted his policy. You are not anywhere near a majority.

And secondly, the majority--actual majority here--of scholars think that his crime bills are regressive and dangerous for society. Even Newt Gingrinch has come out and criticized the form of criminal justice that Harper wants to implement.

50%+ outside Quebec accepted his policy. Many of the Tory victories were landslides winning 50%-77% of the vote in many ridings.

[cybercoma]

Let's cut out all the provinces except for Alberta to make your point even stronger.

[Mr.Canada]

Let's cut out all the provinces except for Alberta to make your point even stronger.

You really think that Canada would be better off with Layton trying to grab power by teaming up with the Liberals?

[bud]

Majority of Canadians approved and accepted his policy. Majority of Canadians wants the justice system to be tougher on crime.

i thought only 39% of those who voted, voted for harper. correct me if i'm wrong.

[RNG]

First of all, the majority of Canadians did no such thing. Out of 60% of the voters, 40% of them approved and accepted his policy. That means roughly 25% of all voting Canadians approved and accepted his policy. You are not anywhere near a majority.

And secondly, the majority--actual majority here--of scholars think that his crime bills are regressive and dangerous for society. Even Newt Gingrinch has come out and criticized the form of criminal justice that Harper wants to implement.

Yes, but using your math means that 81% of Canadians hate the NDP. It works both ways.

[RNG]

Let's cut out all the provinces except for Alberta to make your point even stronger.

I really don't understand this one.

Edited May 8, 2011 by RNG

[betsy]

i thought only 39% of those who voted, voted for harper. correct me if i'm wrong.

The way I see it, it's about the numbers of seats he has. An elected MP represents his constituents.

Those who didn't vote at all don't count. They'd chosen to have no say!

Edited May 8, 2011 by betsy

[Bryan]

The way I see it, it's about the numbers of seats he has. An elected MP represents his constituents.

Those who didn't vote at all don't count. They'd chosen to have no say!

They chose the status quo. Only 36% of all eligible voters voted against the government.

[cybercoma]

You really think that Canada would be better off with Layton trying to grab power by teaming up with the Liberals?

Do you really think that's what I'm saying?

[cybercoma]

Yes, but using your math means that 81% of Canadians hate the NDP. It works both ways.

I didn't say that percentage of Canadians hate the Conservatives. Why is it so hard for so many on this forum to have an honest discussion? All I'm saying is that a majority of Canadians do not support the Conservatives, if the definition of supporting the Conservatives is voting for them in the election.

[TimG]

All I'm saying is that a majority of Canadians do not support the Conservatives, if the definition of supporting the Conservatives is voting for them in the election.

You can't say that because you do not know how many people voted for another party but still find a Conservative government acceptable. A vote for a single party on a ballot does not truely capture the opinion of Canadians. Edited May 8, 2011 by TimG

[cybercoma]

The best method I have for determining the support a party has is by the number of people that go to the polls and put a ballot in the box for the Conservatives. They were supported by more Canadians than any of the other parties individually; however, they are not supported by the majority of Canadians.

[RNG]

The best method I have for determining the support a party has is by the number of people that go to the polls and put a ballot in the box for the Conservatives. They were supported by more Canadians than any of the other parties individually; however, they are not supported by the majority of Canadians.

That is true, however it also means that the NDP is supported by far fewer people, and the Liberals and so on. So what point are you trying to make. Is this a pitch for some form of PR?

[TimG]

The best method I have for determining the support a party has is by the number of people that go to the polls and put a ballot in the box for the Conservatives. They were supported by more Canadians than any of the other parties individually; however, they are not supported by the majority of Canadians.

Sorry. The ballot box does not allow you to make the claim that 'they are not supported by the majority of Canadians' because that claim requires evidence that is not provided by the ballot. The most you can say is they did not get the vote of a majority of Canadians. The semantics of 'not getting the vote' is quite different from 'are not supported'. You play on those differences in order to make claims that are not supported by the available data. Edited May 8, 2011 by TimG

[Rick]

Sorry. The ballot box does not allow you to make the claim that 'they are not supported by the majority of Canadians' because that claim requires evidence that is not provided by the ballot. The most you can say is they did not get the vote of a majority of Canadians. The semantics of 'not getting the vote' is quite different from 'are not supported'. You play on those differences in order to make claims that are not supported by the available data.

And you are using semantics yourself to make it seem as though a majority of Canadians actually support the Conservatives.

When in fact that is not true.

[TimG]

And you are using semantics yourself to make it seem as though a majority of Canadians actually support the Conservatives.

What I am saying is we don't know if a majority of Canadians supports the Conservatives and that people using the ballot box results to make such claims are engaging in partisan spin doctoring.

That said, I don't think it is a stretch to claim that 1/2 of the remaining Liberal vote likely supports the Conservatives even if they did not vote for them. However, I do acknowledge that is speculation on my part and not an assertion of fact.

Edited May 8, 2011 by TimG

[WWWTT]

I can only hope so. That would be a perfect compliment to the crime bills we'll finally be able to pass.

But you are forgetting one little thing,its called the Canadian constitution!

[WWWTT]

Conservatives' stance on crime is no secret. It's been laid out on the table. It's been one of the most contested policies and one which was used to attack his policies during the campaign. It's been there in the limelight, debated in all media.

Furthermore, Harper vowed to pass the crime bill (omnibus?) within the first 100 seating days in government, should he win.

The response of Canadians is clear. MAJORITY.

Majority of Canadians approved and accepted his policy. Majority of Canadians wants the justice system to be tougher on crime.

When Harper had a minority, the oppositions were all harping that "majority" of Canadian do not like his policies, saying that all three oppositions combined, they've got more seats than Harper.

Well now put all oppositions together and they still come up with fewer seats than Harper....how much clear can it be? This time, this is truly what the Canadians want!

I'm sorry but constitutional and human rights are never up for election!

It does not matter what Harpers policys are,he can not change constitutional rights.

And thats how the Canadian system works!

This is the check and balanced system operating.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

The left keeps on saying that Canadians don't agree with Harper yet they agree with Harper more then they do the other parties it seems.

The Harper Tories have gained in seats in every single election since merging. The left is just out of touch with reality. The Tories have over 50% of the vote outside Quebec. So it would seem that besides Quebec the majority of Canadians do support the Tory way of life.

I'd love to see the death penalty brought back in but now I'm just dreaming. Maybe in the next majority government we'll get it.

I've got one word for you:

Unconstitutional

WWWTT

[cybercoma]

That is true, however it also means that the NDP is supported by far fewer people, and the Liberals and so on. So what point are you trying to make. Is this a pitch for some form of PR?

The point I'm trying to make is that contrary to what betsy said, the majority of Canadians do not support the Conservatives. Is that really so hard to understand?

[cybercoma]

Sorry. The ballot box does not allow you to make the claim that 'they are not supported by the majority of Canadians' because that claim requires evidence that is not provided by the ballot. The most you can say is they did not get the vote of a majority of Canadians. The semantics of 'not getting the vote' is quite different from 'are not supported'. You play on those differences in order to make claims that are not supported by the available data.

It's simple, Tim. Until you can show me that the majority of Canadians support the Conservative Party, I will continue to believe that the majority do not support them, since they only received 39% of the votes cast in the last election and votes from roughly 25% of all people eligible to vote. Any way you cut it, that's not the majority of Canadians.

[TimG]

The point I'm trying to make is that contrary to what betsy said, the majority of Canadians do not support the Conservatives. Is that really so hard to understand?

It is not hard to understand. The problem is you have no evidence to support your claim. As said I said before, it is wrong to claim everyone who did not vote for the Conservatives does not support the Conservative government. The decicion on who to vote for is made for many reasons. For example, a CPC supporter may vote Liberal in a riding where the CPC candidate had no chance. With no data all you can do is speculate on whether the Conservative government has the support of the majority of Canadians.

[TimG]

It's simple, Tim. Until you can show me that the majority of Canadians support the Conservative Party, I will continue to believe that the majority do not support them.

You believe whatever you want. That does not make it true.

[cybercoma]

It is not hard to understand. The problem is you have no evidence to support your claim. As said I said before, it is wrong to claim everyone who did not vote for the Conservatives does not support the Conservative government. The decicion on who to vote for is made for many reasons. For example, a CPC supporter may vote Liberal in a riding where the CPC candidate had no chance. With no data all you can do is speculate on whether the Conservative government has the support of the majority of Canadians.

This is the point, Tim. While you want to speculate and make assumptions that supporters who don't vote for the Conservatives actually support them, I'm basing my opinion on the reality of who actual casted a ballot, thereby supporting their local candidate and giving money to the party for their vote. I can empirically show you how many people supported the Conservatives: 39% of those that casted ballots. That's not a majority. I can also show you that those who did not vote, while not supporting any other party, also did not support the Conservative Party. In that case, they only got the support of roughly 25% of eligible voters. Now, until you can show me evidence to the contrary by crawling inside the minds of voters and actually gathering empircal data to support your claim that the majority of Canadians support the Conservatives, I'm going to base my opinion off the best metric we have: the ballots cast in the election.

[TimG]

I'm basing my opinion on the reality of who actual casted a ballot, thereby supporting their local candidate and giving money to the party for their vote. I can empirically show you how many people supported the Conservatives: 39% of those that casted ballots.

And all that data says is less than a majority of people voted for the Conservative government. If you want to use the word 'support' then you need more than the ballot box results to jutify your position.