NDP to form offical opposition.

[Scotty]

[quote name='August1991' date='23 April 2011 - 05:52 PM' timestamp='1303590131' post='660034'}

In short, the stark nature of debate in Canada today is caused by the Left. The Left does not tolerate the Right or a right wing government. In a sense, the Left is saying that we can only have peace if the Left is in control.

This is my take on it too. I am not even all that far to the right, in fact. I am not religious, have no huge objections to gay marriage, am pro choice, don't support the death penalty, and believe in public health care funding in a big way.

To me, the Left is rigidly, even in some cases, violently intolerant to divergent views. I might think some of the left wing views are silly, naive, and too big-brotherish, but I don't question their morality the way the Left constantly does about the Right. This is a concern with Layton, for his views are of a similar nature and deeply entrenched. I would expect, in the unlikely event his party took power, a whole raft of new laws guiding public behaviour which would include criminal sanctions to anyone who uses intolerant/racist/homophobic language, even in private speech, mandatory minority hiring and promotion quotas, and wide ranging new censorship laws (much of the Left dislikes freedom of speech as an ideal).

[Scotty]

That is such bull. The right never compromises. The Liberas, for example, proposed compromise on the long gun registry. Now, I didn't agree with the compromise, but still, the Conservatives completely ignored it. There are many many cases.

The Conservative Party is not "the right". There would be a host of political reasons why they might not take the compromise, including the fact this is such a winning issue for them with gun owners/hunters, and these could have little or nothing to do with a conservative philosophy.

[RNG]

If sun news said the US deficit is 4 Trillion dollars then they are the worst News network that ever existed.

Skimming a variety of sites when I "googled us deficit" shows a US debt of $14.3T on the national debt clock, but others have it at $8T. I wonder if the 14+ number includes the SS/Medicaid liability?

The deficite numbers also varied from $800B to $1.6T.

Sort of like the annual report of a large company. Lots of ways to play with numbers.

[Scotty]

It is the viceral hatred that I find hard to deal with. Most people on the right will dislike politicies like Layton and Iggy but they don't hate him the way people on the left hate Harper.

Exactly. I don't like most of his policies, but I believe he believes that they are well-meaning and will better society. I think Elizabeth May has some really dumb ideas, but I don't think she's evil. But you don't have to put any effort into finding people who sneer at Harper as evil, vicious, hateful, etc. Two years ago I worked with a lot of younger people, ie, in their twenties. Almost unanimously they were utterly dismissive of Harper and thought he was an awful man out to destroy health care, destroy the poor, destroy Canada, join it to the US, etc. etc.

By and large, btw, these young people knew virtually nothing about the political process, rarely read newspapers or watched the news, understood little about how the economy or government functions, and - thankfully - rarely voted.

[Scotty]

Have you paid any attention at all to how the popular American right likes to talk about Obama?

If you are going to suggest the Canadian Left is the same as the American Right you will be doing them no kindness.

[Scotty]

I know people on other message boards who have a visceral hatred for Layton.

What other message boards?

[Smallc]

What other message boards?

I don't have to tell you everywhere I visit, do I?

[Scotty]

Ok so why is Obama getting a free ride on his mismanagement? Is it because he's a far left Democrat.

Could be because the whole mess of a deficit was the Republican's fault, and that the hugely expensive bailout was their idea, oh, and that there was a huge, whopping big deficit courtesy of Georgie Bush Junior even before that.

[Smallc]

The Conservative Party is not "the right".

Well, if they aren't, then there is no objective right in this discussion. Yes, the Conservatives have kept pretty close to the centre, but they are, undeniably, further right than all of the other parties in Parliament.

[Scotty]

Ever tried reading Free Dominion?

Yes, but Free Dominion is nowhere near as bad as Rabble. Nor as authoritarian.

Edited April 24, 2011 by Scotty

[Scotty]

Exactly so, you gave an example.

I offer a counter-example, named Mr. Canada.

The guy saying everyone should vote for Jack Layton??

[Guest Derek L]

If sun news said the US deficit is 4 Trillion dollars then they are the worst News network that ever existed.

I think the orignal poster was confused with the 4 Trillion dollar figure. Thats approx what Obama added to the national debt, through deficit spending in his two years in office.

In fairness, it can't all be put at the feet of Obama, but the US Congress.

[Scotty]

I don't have to tell you everywhere I visit, do I?

[bush_cheney2004]

If you are going to suggest the Canadian Left is the same as the American Right you will be doing them no kindness.

Left or right, with or without kindness, it is the Canadian way to define such things in terms of Americans.

[Guest Derek L]

Could be because the whole mess of a deficit was the Republican's fault, and that the hugely expensive bailout was their idea, oh, and that there was a huge, whopping big deficit courtesy of Georgie Bush Junior even before that.

TARP, much like our bailouts here, are not the fault of any one politican, but Keynesian economics......

[punked]

TARP, much like our bailouts here, are not the fault of any one politican, but Keynesian economics......

So much wrong with this it isn't funny.

[Guest Derek L]

So much wrong with this it isn't funny.

You're in favor of giving poorly managed corporations tax payer's money?

[Mr.Canada]

Could be because the whole mess of a deficit was the Republican's fault, and that the hugely expensive bailout was their idea, oh, and that there was a huge, whopping big deficit courtesy of Georgie Bush Junior even before that.

This reminds me of Ontario and blaming Mike Harries for things that happened a decade after he was in office. At what point do you start to place some of the blame on the guy who is the President today? He's been President since 2008, at what point are things his fault? Orr is he never at fault because he's black and progressive?

The guy saying everyone should vote for Jack Layton??

I'm saying that every progressive vote should be parked with Jack Layton. We need to destroy the decadent, arrogant Liberal Party of Canada once and for all. Ushering in a new age of Canadians politics which will be polarized along left-right lines.

[RNG]

TARP, much like our bailouts here, are not the fault of any one politican, but Keynesian economics......

The US board I visit has many Democrats constantly praiseing Keynesian economics and using that as justification for TARP et al. The problem is that they only believe in half of what Keynes said. The part about the government should spend big in bad times. He also said that the government should pay off the loans big in good times. It seems Democrats, Republicans, Conservatives and Liberals (except for Paul Martin) forget that second part all the time.

[Scotty]

This reminds me of Ontario and blaming Mike Harries for things that happened a decade after he was in office. At what point do you start to place some of the blame on the guy who is the President today? He's been President since 2008, at what point are things his fault? Orr is he never at fault because he's black and progressive?

I'm not a fan of Obama. I think he screwed up by leaving too much to Nancy Pelosi, and that he shouldn't have focused on health care reform but campaign financing reform. However, we're not ten years away, but three years away from George Bush's multi-year deficits, and just coming out of a massive recession - and into Republican control of the House. His options have been severely limited.

[Mr.Canada]

I'm not a fan of Obama. I think he screwed up by leaving too much to Nancy Pelosi, and that he shouldn't have focused on health care reform but campaign financing reform. However, we're not ten years away, but three years away from George Bush's multi-year deficits, and just coming out of a massive recession - and into Republican control of the House. His options have been severely limited.

Rep. are calling for spending cuts and Obama is refusing that's what the stalemate that nearly shutdown gov't a couple weeks ago was about.

[punked]

You're in favor of giving poorly managed corporations tax payer's money?

No I am saying blaming Keynesian economics for the problem is wrong.

[Scotty]

Rep. are calling for spending cuts and Obama is refusing that's what the stalemate that nearly shutdown gov't a couple weeks ago was about.

The Reps are calling for spending cuts ONLY on the programs they don't like, which tend to be the ones helping the poor. The Reps will, however, defend with their last breath, farm subsidies, subsidies to various industries, military spending, etc. They will also continue to demand tax cuts, regardless of how that increases the deficit. Recall that they forced Obama to continue the Georgie Bush's tax cut for the rich, which was set to expire this year. The dems offered to just have the higher tax on those earning over $300k, I believe, but the Republicans were having none of it.

[Guest Derek L]

No I am saying blaming Keynesian economics for the problem is wrong.

But isn’t stimulus spending a tenant of Keynesian economics?

Bush brought it in, both sides voted for it, and Obama contiuned with.

Coupled with both parties taste for pork and entitlement spending, they're lucky they have the world's largest economy, or they'd be Greece.

[punked]

But isn’t stimulus spending a tenant of Keynesian economics?

Yes but so is Regulation. Problem is during the good times everyone is and Austrian "Get rid of regulation, don't help anyone out, less government, FREEEEMARRRRKKEETTTSSS!!!!" but during the bad times everyone is a Keynesian "More spending, keep people working, stimulate the market."

This leads to the worst of the worse. Both Austrian and Keynesian schools have their problems. These problems are amplified 10 fold when you us the half the school with the problems. Austrian during Booms Keynesian during Busts.