Dementia and the voting process

[William Ashley]

it's a requirement the Feds be on side with the ring road, they approved...the band which is not on your list put the generous finincial and land exchange offer to it's people in a vote and it was rejected...

Harper DIDN'T agree... all it needed was GIC to ok it, and put aside some money for the band... a referendum wasn't legally required... but if the expropriation didn't fit Alberta's expropriation laws.. then it would fail in court.

Now look at the expropriation act of Alberta

Part 1 of the Expropriation Act does not apply to a temporary road or right of way established under section 26

Edited April 18, 2011 by William Ashley

[Molly]

It appears that the bureaucracy/legal system wants to extend suffrage to the widest group possible, and to make it easier to vote - even if this might invite fraud, multiple voting or misuse of ballots. I would not be surprised to see a backlash and a desire to ensure the integrity of the voting system.

Angelo Persichilli[/url

Mr. Persichilli's assertion is that there is no citzenship test in establishing the voters list, and implies that voter cards are sent about willy-nilly empowering the unqualified to vote.

In the first place, the voter cards are irrelevant to the right to vote. In the second place, one is not placed on the voters list without answering in the affirmative to "A) Are you a Canadian citizen?". On income tax forms (the most common list information source) that is followed by: "Answer the following question only if you are a Canadian citizen."

[blueblood]

it's a requirement the Feds be on side with the ring road, they approved...the band which is not on your list put the generous finincial and land exchange offer to it's people in a vote and it was rejected...

Correct, what's even funnier is that after the same band wanted a paved road built to their new casino. They were promptly told to pound sand. That was a while ago and I don't know if they got their road built.

[scribblet]

Mr. Persichilli's assertion is that there is no citzenship test in establishing the voters list, and implies that voter cards are sent about willy-nilly empowering the unqualified to vote.

In the first place, the voter cards are irrelevant to the right to vote. In the second place, one is not placed on the voters list without answering in the affirmative to "A) Are you a Canadian citizen?". On income tax forms (the most common list information source) that is followed by: "Answer the following question only if you are a Canadian citizen."

Except that no proof is required, anyone can say yes, and get to vote. I believe proof is required by enumerators who go door to door.

I used to know a guy about 18 years ago who had the balls to go into a polling area in Scarborough and say loudly, is there anyone here who is not a Canadian Citizen... you'd be surprised how many actually left. LOL I'm not sure but I believe we have the right to challenge someone...

[scribblet]

No they should not be removed. The NDP have as much right to their supporters as any other party.

LOL < snort >

Actually, I don't see how they can disallow a person with dementia from voting just as trying to disallow a mentally challenged person to vote would be seen as against their civil rights etc. What they might be able to do is not allow the guardian/caregiver to hold the pencil and vote for them. The individual must make the mark on their own.

[Tilter]

For someone so young, you are 60 years behind....

http://www.danielnpaul.com/CanadianVotingRights-1960.html

and look at the inequity in the War of 1812, or the war of the roses--- there was a bad war for civil; rights for natives . How about some more Ancient History?

1960 was 51 years ago. Things have changed except that very few more of those enfranchised Natives vote now than before 1960.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Tilter

[wyly]

Harper DIDN'T agree... all it needed was GIC to ok it, and put aside some money for the band... a referendum wasn't legally required... but if the expropriation didn't fit Alberta's expropriation laws.. then it would fail in court.

Now look at the expropriation act of Alberta

disagree, negotiations were completed it was the band that rejected the terms not harper.

[Wild Bill]

Except that no proof is required, anyone can say yes, and get to vote. I believe proof is required by enumerators who go door to door.

I used to know a guy about 18 years ago who had the balls to go into a polling area in Scarborough and say loudly, is there anyone here who is not a Canadian Citizen... you'd be surprised how many actually left. LOL I'm not sure but I believe we have the right to challenge someone...

Scrib, it's a typical Canadian situation. We have rules but don't bother to enforce them.

The last time a pair of enumerator ladies knocked on my door they didn't ask for any proof at all. They took my word for who lived there and their citizenship.

I asked them specifically what was to stop someone not a citizen from lying. One lady immediately said that lying about eligibility was a federal offence! I then asked, is there any followup or enforcement process to determine if someone lied, let alone punish them for it.

Both ladies at that point had nothing further to say and left!

Now, my experience as a scrutineer tells me that any scrutineer may challenge any voter on the list. This harkens back to the days when ridings were less populated and a scrutineer at any given polling station likely knew all his neighbours. Scrutineers of course are witnesses for their parties, allowing input to the process to ensure things are on the up and up.

Today, the chances of knowing everyone are much lower. Worse yet, no one wants to make a challenge for fear of the inevitable accusation of racism! It's guaranteed that the other parties would rather make a racism charge at their opponent than actually ensure that only real citizens voted. This would be true for Tories as much as Liberals and NDP, I suspect.

Since it's so easy and virtually unpoliced, I have no doubt its quite common in large metro areas like Toronto that non-citizens get on the voters list all the time. Certain parties traditionally have greatly benefited from the immigrant vote and certainly would not want any challenging going on that might reduce their own voting numbers.

This situation may be slowly changing. More and more immigrants have been here long enough to begin to see things more clearly in their politics. They are becoming as diverse in their choices as longtime "domestic" Canadians.

That's a GOOD thing!

Edited April 18, 2011 by Wild Bill

[wyly]

Correct, what's even funnier is that after the same band wanted a paved road built to their new casino. They were promptly told to pound sand. That was a while ago and I don't know if they got their road built.

from what I recall they wanted access to adjacent city roads which was approved I don't know anything about paving I would assume that's their cost...

it's their land and they can do as they wish with but IMO they really missed an opportunity...what they we're giving up was a relatively small strip of land in one corner of the reserve for a huge sum of money and crown land in exchange...the cash would've been of enormous benefit to the band the land received would more than made up for what was lost...the band leaders made a great deal but it was rejected by those who are more worried about their past heritage then their children's future...the reserve land is beautiful prime real-estate and worth hundreds of millions they could easily develop and sell half of it for residential homes and retire everyone on the reserve and still have a substantial sized reserve...as well there would be commercial/retail opportunity with a city of over a million people on their doorstep...this should be the wealthiest reserve in canada...

[Sailor]

Wouldn't that cost Harper his fan base?

I'd be surprised if he hasn't rigged, manipulated or otherwise messed with EC to date anyway.

[Harry]

As Dementia is going to continue to grow, perhaps EC should be asked to regulate who can visit care homes. Maybe no political party should be allowed to visit seniors residences alone, without allowing for represenatives from other parties to be present as well. Just to make sure everything is on the up and up.

[capricorn]

I'd be surprised if he hasn't rigged, manipulated or otherwise messed with EC to date anyway.

Well then, I guess in the process he forgot to replace Marc Mayrand, the Chief Electoral Officer, with someone friendlier toward the Conservatives.

[Rue]

We have an age restriction becfore citizens are eligible to vote but as far as I know no restrictions on the other end when folks are aging and have Dementia. As Dementia is a growing phenomena with our aging population, should we not ask Elections Canada to remove people with Dementia from the voter's list? Otherwise we possibly could end up having large-scale abuse of the voting process.

You would have to have someone declared legally incompetent before you could prevent them from voting.

There's a fine line between what you and I think is demented behaviour and what others think is not.

Look I just went through and continue to go through this situation where a quetionable lawyer tried to have someone with severe alzheimer's appoint him her new exective-I can tell you stories of all kinds of people trying to take advantage of people with dementia.

I can tell you stories of a clearly mentally ill, violent, demented man who abusinghis wife who had alzheimer's and being released by a hospital to live in deplorable conditions with her because no one in the hospital wanted to force a psychiatric assessment on the man saying he was old and they would just wait for him to die-it would be less trouble.

We all have stories of the demented we feel should be hospitalized but systems of law and medicine that say you can't force psychiatric assessments on people until in effect they have killed someone or seriously hurt someone or themselves.

In one situation I could not help people until a senior collapsed on the street. Until then the law said the senior's husband who was demented but not declared legally incompetent could not be told what to do with her.

Unfortunately the system moves slowly and often needs a crisis before it can do anything.

No it doesn't always protect the demented and when it moves it does so slowly. I share your frustration. However it moves slowly because the alternative would be using the pretense of dementia to prevent legitimate people from voting.

We have many countries that have used the pretense of accusing someone with being mentally ill or demented to prevent them from expressing their legitimate political views. You just need ask someone from Eastern Europe, or other countries where there is no democracy how that works.

So I share your frustration but caution you sometimes there is a fine line between abusing demented people to get votes and unfairly not allowing someone to vote.

Its a tough call. If someone truly believes another to have dementia and they are a danger to themselves and won't get help you can do something. As futile as it sounds if you believe they are about to burn themselves or they are starving themselves or being beaten, you can call the police-don't underestimate the police. They may not a lot of times do anything but their presence at the door can often be the first set of neutral eyes that can go on to notify the appropriate social agency or at least have someone taken in to hospital for observation. Police are over worked but they have helped in many situations where a crime of neglect was happening and where they could see physical signs of abuse. They have the power to call in help for example when they see cruelty to animals, vermin infestations, apartments overwhelmed with filth and decay or people with visible bruises, bleeding or inability to be coherent.

If you know someone has a doctor report in writing your concerns to the doctor and then the doctor has a practice obligation to investigate what you sent in to them. The moment you put something in writing there is a paper trail to that doctor at least obliging him or her to investigate.

Things move slowly but they do work. If you suspect someone of dementia is being abused and you know they are a member of a church or other house of religion, report it to their clergy person because clergy know who to notify in the event they think one of their seniors is in distress. Most clergy today you would be surprised have up to date training in crisis intervention with seniors.

If you suspect someone in a seniors home with dementia is being abused you can report it to the provincial Ministry of Health.

Also if you suspect seniors being abused for political votes, report it to the local news media. They take such allegations very seriously. Local news media has been active in exposing voting abuse or irregularities with seniors but I can also tell you this-as many problems as we have in Canada, Elections Canada and the political parties are all trying their best to see seniors get out and vote and are not abused or taken advantage of.

If you suspect partisan political activies exploiting a senior during an election you can report it to Elections Canada as well. There are several medical charities you can also notify including the Alzheimer's Society,

If you really do not know where to start you can even go to your own family doctor if you have one and ask or phone the city where you live general information line and they will refer you to the appropriate local community centre or entity to help that senior.

If you ever suspect a senior living alone could start a fire, go tell the fire department in the neighbourhood they live in. They also have the right to check them out.

Fire departments doing routine fire inspections on calls from concerned neighbours have been able to have isolated seniors removed or helped. Many seniors with dementia light themselves on fire by accident with their stoves or get serious burns. Fire departments know this. They can help too.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Rue

[scribblet]

Wouldn't that cost Harper his fan base?

I'd be surprised if he hasn't rigged, manipulated or otherwise messed with EC to date anyway.

Really, I'd be surprised if the appointees aren't all Liberals... LOL