Health Care

[Guest eureka]

The sourse of the figures is the one I gave the other day: an article in the Toronto Star and not one by any "special interest."

The figure is the total of all spending.

[Guest eureka]

There has been much talk of privatization in healthcare. Often, proponents of more privatization in Canada point to the UK as an example of two tier healthcare. Sweden is also held up as an example by some - not many.

The reality is that two tier or privatization has gone much further in Canada already than in those other countries where public healthcare is King.

In Canada, 70% of Healthcare costs are publicly funded and 30% is private. In Britain, 83% is public and 17% private: Sweden funds 85% from public moneys and 15% private.

The question is in the delivery of services and how it is controlled: whether what is privately delivered but publicly funded is controlled and not for profit. There are many complexities in the issue and there is room for private delivery from public money provided all the safeguards in the public system are maintained.

However, Canada has already gone too far as the above figures show. This, in spite of the now incontrovertible evidence that private healthcare is both more expensive and less beneficial in terms of health outcomes. Many studies have suggested that there is also probably an edge in efficiency to the public systems as private deliverers minimise efficiencies as they maximise profits.

[Hugo]

In Canada, 70% of Healthcare costs are publicly funded and 30% is private. In Britain, 83% is public and 17% private: Sweden funds 85% from public moneys and 15% private.

Where did you hear that?

This, in spite of the now incontrovertible evidence that private healthcare is both more expensive and less beneficial in terms of health outcomes.

What evidence?

Many studies have suggested that there is also probably an edge in efficiency to the public systems

Which studies?

[Big Blue Machine]

I think Ottawa should put their money where their mouth is, and give more money. I think it should be 50/50 cost sharing between governments. Provinces also should have the right to set up their own social programs to suit their province, the federal government doesn't know the needs and demands of each provnice.

[caesar]

[Quote) : BC, one out of every ten dollars taxpayers pay to their provincial government goes to pay doctor's salaries alone. Not "health care" in general, just doctor's salaries. Interestingly, doctors pay taxes too, so one out of ten dollars they pay in taxes goes back to their own bank account. Neat "

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No wonder there is no money for healthcare.

In BC and Alberta; we pay for their malpractice insurance and any furthur medical education costs.

Now all they want to do is sit in their offices writing prescription for Americans they never see?????

[willy]

Maybe if we had more good union employees, the system would be better.

Hey get a life. Do you really want the lowest paid doctor to work on you.

Look a little closer and you will be glad that doc's have ongoing education.

As for insurance it is part of the contract. GP's still have to pay office staff, equipment costs and building costs. If you think they are over paid, look into what they actually do for the money.

In rural areas, some physicians are on call all the time.

I could go on but we need to pay people well to do what they do. They work 60 to 80 hours a week. They have to deal with death all the time. The money aint worth it.

[caesar]

You get a life troll. We want some money left for health care not just overpaid doctors. Stop trolling; I know your game.

What good are a bunch of overpaid doctors if we can't afford operations or tests or any real health care.

[caesar]

quote: "While each doctor's situation is unique, the package amounts to an average increase of $50,000 per doctor per year.

Funding for doctors now amounts to $602 per British Columbian per year - the highest per capita funding, by far, in Canada. The next closest is Ontario at $497.

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Other health care workers get decreases; Why should a doctor get an average 50thousand a year increase????

[Cartman]

Provinces also should have the right to set up their own social programs to suit their province, the federal government doesn't know the needs and demands of each provnice.

I think that allowing the Provinces to make creative decisions is great as long as they strictly follow the 5 principles of the Canada Health Care Act.

[maplesyrup]

Doctors need to be put on salary, and nurses and other health care professionals need to be given more power and authority in the system. Right now we have almost a dictatorship of doctors.

[caesar]

The Provincial governments are holding closed meetings on health care; The federal government is having their meeting with the provinces televised for the public. Who would you trust???

[Cartman]

The Provincial governments are holding closed meetings on health care; The federal government is having their meeting with the provinces televised for the public. Who would you trust???

We need accountability from the Provinces and the feds. The Provinces accepted less money in return for less accountability. The entire funding system needs to be revisited in terms of accountability. This became clear when they became so upset when Romanow suggested this.

[willy]

Physicians are the hart of the system. They are the ones with the clinical knowledge. Nurses can be more quickly trained and probably better used but who do we really receive health care from.

First and foremost we need a family doctor as a gateway into the health system which is largely made of specialist physicians who will treat us.

The answer for Maplesyrup is salary and not fee for service as it is in most situations now. This is clearly a disincentive to productivity. We all want a doctor to spend time with us but we don't have enough doctors to live in that situation. The demand right now for family doc's greatly exceeds the supply. The wage increases and larger class sizes still haven't solved the problem. These are challenging dynamic issues and they are not as simple as Maplesyrup and Ceasar would make out.

Other than nurses who are these other professionals that would increase access to health care.

Ceasar you seem a little angry, who would you like treatment from:

a. Psyc Nurse

b. The guy who works the x-ray machine

c. The cleaning staff

d. The cook

e. The hospital administrator

f. Family doctor

g. Pysciatrist

Note only two of them are doctors but they are probably the only people who may be able to help. You do have to want the help however; do you want some help. Anger can cause stress, which can cause high blood pressure, ulcers, skin problems and even early death. Really you should get it taken care of.

I have to now go under my bridge for the night.

The Troll

[caesar]

A doctor, without lab workers and nurses to provide the needed help is fairly useless. We have to fund the WHOLE system not just the doctors. No one in a failing industry deserves an average 50 thousand a year raise. That is like these large companies declaring bankruptcy being found to have paid multimillion dollar "bonuses" to all their executives while the company was going down in flames; leaving investors holding the empty pot.

Primary care in the hospital comes from nurses and nurses aides not doctors.

Doctors are not some great gods; they make many serious mistakes. A good pharmacist is a good idea to warn you when they discover mis prescribing. My son's previous doctor kept prescribing him penicillin when he knew on his files that my son was extremely allergic to such medication. My husband's eye specialist prescribed eye drops that were not correct for his eye condition and which caused him serious side affects and could have killed him. He didn't think I shouuld be angry; because he had be doing a "great job on his eyes" for years. An eye problem, I will add that was caused by another careless specialist.

We need other well trained health personnel to catch mistakes made by doctors and to provide necessary tests and ongoing care.

[Hugo]

Other health care workers get decreases; Why should a doctor get an average 50thousand a year increase????

Doctors get paid less than auto workers on an hourly basis. Do auto workers go to medical school (or the equivalent) for 7 years? A payroll clerk in a hospital makes 39% more than his equivalent in the private sector, a painter, 31% more, a booking clerk, 32% more.

Your evidence of medical incompetence is anecdotal and does not reflect a larger trend. The reason for the failure of the Canadian medical system is not doctors, but the effects of the public-sector monopoly, which ensures chronic waste, misallocation of resources, long waiting lists, poor delivery of services, etc.

[Guest eureka]

I did not hear it, Hugo: I read it. I read it just a few days ago in a newspaper article.

By the same token, when I refer to studies, I refer to the many hundreds of reports that have appeared in Newspapers and magazines; on radio and television. Those things are so well known now that any judge at a trial would take judicial notice and not allow any questioning of them as to fact.

I really think that any who wish to debate the health care situation should be required to inform themselves first. The information should not come only from the pages of a Reform Party caucus statement. There are real sources and accurate information almost daily in these times.

[Hugo]

I did not hear it, Hugo: I read it. I read it just a few days ago in a newspaper article.

Can I see a link or a citation, then? Just so I can make sure it isn't making grevious errors, for instance, failing to take into account that prescription drugs in the UK are covered by the government whereas it is left up to private health insurance in Canada, which alone skews the figures without reflecting the situation in hospitals and primary healthcare providers at all.

By the same token, when I refer to studies, I refer to the many hundreds of reports that have appeared in Newspapers and magazines; on radio and television.

Then it wouldn't be too much effort for you to cite some, would it?

Stalin used to argue the same way you are. He'd write things like, "as is well known, Jews are invariably capitalists" without a shred of evidence, trying to get people to believe that such a fact was as intuitive as night following day. Stalin, by the way, is acknowledged as one of the worst socialist writers.

I really think that any who wish to debate the health care situation should be required to inform themselves first.

Oh, I have. I just want to make sure that you have too.

[Guest eureka]

Actually, Hugo, if you read the Toronto Star, both the articles I have cited appear there within the last week or so. Of course, it would be too much trouble to give links. They are in the paper to be read and, I am sure, the same information is appearing in many other elements of the mediad in order to prevent the Premiers usual demagoguery as they are now meeting.

I would suspect that most people who are commenting on healthcare now do not read anything about it. Probably half of what I am seeing in the guise of discussion comes solely from preconceived notions or bias. I referrd to the Reform Party Caucus statement (authored principally by Harper): how many know that document porposed means tested access to healthcare - in different words, of course?

Why do you bring Stalin into this. Goebells was the real master of that technique. That is why I would never write anything I did not know about, or could intelligently form an opinion. I leave the "big lie" to the neo-cons.

[Hugo]

Until you come up with something, eureka, I'm not going to debate this with you. What you're basically saying is that I have to research your points for you, that what you say is "common knowledge" and you allege in thinly veiled terms that people who disagree with you must be uninformed and ignorant.

If you want to back up your assertations with substance, go ahead. Until then, you're wasting my time.

[Guest eureka]

The substance is there. All you have to do if you are to blinkered to receive it, is read the last week of the Toronto Star on the page of columns - not the editorial page. I have told you that a few times.

You could also read the Reform Party Caucus statement of 1988 to find the view of the "Conservatives" on healthcare. It states that there should be different means of access (to healthcare) for the wealthy; and the middle classes and Social Assistance recipients. That means "Means Testing" phrased euphemistically.

By all means don't debate with me if you cannot accept what is current or common knowlege. I have posted nothing yet that is either controversial or opinion. I have opinions on this that I would debate but they have had no reason yet to emerge. Anything that I have said to offend the "Rightists" is also part of the reports made for the Romanow Commission.

[willy]

Here is a good link to a good report.

Kirby! This link shows specifically how socialist contries have incorporated private delivery to universal health care for the benefit of all citizens.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/1/parlbus/commbus...jan01vol3-e.htm

Romanow was a shame. He did not examine real change. The status quo with more money was his big answer. Where is the money?

Mazinkowsky in Alberta came to very similar conclusions to Kirby and Alberta is using those conclusions.

This debate should not be about equity but rather accessibility to services when we need them.

[caesar]

quote; Hugo

Doctors get paid less than auto workers on an hourly basis. Do auto workers go to medical school (or the equivalent) for 7 years?

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Where do you come up with that little gem. From what I know; the average doctor in BC now earns 300 thousand a year; his malpractice insurance is paid for by the taxpayers; any furthur medical education is paid for by taxpayers; they have maternity or adoption benefits paid for by the taxpayers.

Those auto workers must be making really big wages.

However, professional athletes do make much more; at least the good ones do.

[Hugo]

Where do you come up with that little gem.

Fraser institute.

From what I know; the average doctor in BC now earns 300 thousand a year

Then you don't know much. The average general physician in BC makes $85,700. Even specialist physicians such as surgeons only make $116,600, so I don't know where you pulled that $300k figure from.

(Work futures BC page)

However, professional athletes do make much more; at least the good ones do.

So what?

[caesar]

quote;

quote: "While each doctor's situation is unique, the package amounts to an average increase of $50,000 per doctor per year

That was after their last raise; (Average doctor) that was a 23% increase ( 20% of 250,000 equals 50,000)

I don't think there would be very many earning that 87,000 figure. As we are now paying any continuing medical education; why would any remain at that level unless they are inept?

I do realize my information is gross wages ; still after his business expenses; they should average much more than 85,700.

[Hugo]

I don't think there would be very many earning that 87,000 figure.

No, that's the average. Do you know what an average is?

You said:

the average doctor in BC now earns 300 thousand a year

but in actual fact, the average doctor in BC earns less than a third of that. You were wrong. Sorry.