Health Care

[Bakunin]

maybe your government waste money but don't blame all the province's. The point is that the federal gets too much money and then have to send it back to the province. Its already stupid but they use this opportunity to manipulate the province. healthcare is a provincial juridiction, the federal shouldn't have a word to say about where the money is going.

[willy]

caesar & payfullfellow,

The annual budget for the BC government is 33 Billion Dollars. Health care spending is currently 14 Billion dollars annually. Do the math 1/3 of all spending on health care.

The Olympics will be 3 billion dollars over the next 6 years and the actual event should generate that or more in revenue. This could be considered an investment that will leave the province with legacy infrastructure paid for by the events.

I have also heard that the problem with BC is the big tax cuts made. They cut 1.5 Billion in income taxes 3 years ago. They then increased user fees and the pst. The revenue change is negligible when it comes to billions of revenue and expenses.

Health spending in 93 was 5 billion in this province. Anyone who doesn't think we need to slow the pace of spending increases needs to smoke a little less of our provinces largest crop.

[maplesyrup]

maybe your government waste money but don't blame all the province's. The point is that the federal gets too much money and then have to send it back to the province. Its already stupid but they use this opportunity to manipulate the province. healthcare is a provincial juridiction, the federal shouldn't have a word to say about where the money is going.

Most Canadians are not interested in provincial or federal rights. All they want is a health care system that works the same for them across the country. That is why the federales are there, to create national standards. It is time for us to live in the 21st century, and to stop living in the past.

[Bakunin]

Most Canadians are not interested in provincial or federal rights.

i agree but its not the case evrywhere in canada.

All they want is a health care system that works the same for them across the country. That is why the federales are there, to create national standards.

The problem is that national standards means a less effective healthcare system.

[caesar]

willy:The Olympics will be 3 billion dollars over the next 6 years and the actual event should generate that or more in revenue.

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Just where did you get those figures. The Rav line alone is estimated at 1.7 billion.

There is no quarantee that the olympics will generate any revenue; many have not lived up to those expectations.

[willy]

The Rav line has nothing to do with the Olympics.

3 Billion came out of the bid book.

There is no guarantee but we will still have a new highway to Whistler, rinks, stadiums, upgrades to BC Place, a tone of world wide tourist exposure. So what is your real point.

The winter Olympics are a great opportunity and my point was they have nothing to do with funding health care. Actually they may promote sport which in a holistic view may improve the health of many in our fine province.

The Rav Line is part of a larger 2020 transportation infrastructure plan that includes new bridges, and road upgrades all over the lower mainland. The line plans also include extended the sky train line to the east. This will help move people in and out of Vancouver and help improve our long term air quality. I thought the lefties would like the environmental benefits of rapid transit.

[caesar]

Willy; that is nonsense; the RAV line is being built specifially for the Olympics that is the reason for the rush and the fancier system (If it is to be ready by 2010)

We do not need to build a better highway to a ski hill in Whistler nor fancy sports arenas with taxpayer money.

Take the bid book and stuff it; that is not showing half the costs. People do not need fancy arenas etc to promote sports for health; Walk,

We need Proper health care, schools and children services not this risky bs.

[willy]

The Rav line has been in the works for 10 years. The city of Vancouver approved it more than 2 years ago. The price of the property value by being under ground will over time will pay for the upgrade portion(I assume that is what you mean by fancy).

As for the highway to Whistler, many people die on that road every year and with the development near Pemberton it needs improvement. Safety on our roads also effects the health of our province. That is why we have many projects working on upgrading highways around the province.

Why is it lefties just don't understand investment. Our tax dollars build the infrastructure for the Olympics, the revenue from the Olympics pays us back and we are left with facilities. Go to Calgary where they still benefit in many ways from the 88 Olympics.

Healthcare, schools and children services are born out of our ability to pay. Infrastructure will help our economy grow so we can afford quality social services.

Active people (sports) and clean air will go alone way to improving our health. Should health care not also look at prevention and not just the already sick?

[caesar]

The "RAV" line has not been in the works for 10 years; it just got approved after 3 votes in succession. Democracy in action; If at first you don't get the vote you want; vote, vote, vote again. geesh.

There is a much cheaper option that would not require a lot of unpredicatable underground tunnelling with who knows what cost over runs. There is a track already along Arbutus, that does not come as near to homes to disrupt; this could have easily been negotiated while they did the sneaky sale of BC Rail against all promises. It would come much closer to UBC that could ensure ridership.

Infrastructure all in the lower mainland that the whole province pays for???? A expensive improved highway to a ski hill that will be paid for by the whole province; Local people will be priced out of skiing there. Where is that promised Kelowna bridge (right away; say GC) What are they getting for all the gas taxes. After last years fires that threatened the town; a bottle neck at the bridge could have been deadly. Still they dawdle.

[caesar]

People die on the SEA to Sky every year mainly due to drinking and driving; speeding and hot dogging. If people drive responsibly; there would not be that many accidents. There are through highways with more pressing needs to reduce dangerous areas.

[idealisttotheend]

I agree with willy. People need their "circuses" or sports arenas in this case. Life with only the bare essentials is not worth defending in this age of plenty. Furthermore most of the money will no doubt stay in BC and create a boom for the area and lots of jobs.

If the Olympics are well run they will not lose money and so all this will eventually be revenue neutral. I think it unlikely that it will turn out as Montreal's did in '76 and so whether or not the money would be better spent in health care or education is moot.

[caesar]

What we need is a properly funcioning health care system. schools properly funded, and children at risk protected. We do not need to spend billions of dollars on a 2 week extravaganza 6 years from now. Not if we cannot fund our essentials services. Watch it on tv; which is what most will have to do anyhow. Traffic jams, prices

[willy]

The "RAV" line has not been in the works for 10 years; it just got approved after 3 votes in succession.

Translinks vote was not the birth of this project. It has been debated and rounds of public consultation have been going on for yes 10 years. 4 years ago you may remember the Arbutus corridor debate when a community person from that area made some dumb comments about powerful people in the Arbutus area. The City of Vancouver voted to support the Rav line in council 2 years ago. The fact that a board of directors on translink did not represent their constituents and wanted to start the debate over again is appalling. Everyone has an opinion but this project has been processed to death.

The reason the train will not go down Arbutus is because the major population stops are not on that line.

Cambie has a mall, college and high density zoning. The south river crossing from the Cambie route will also be less expensive.

Get the facts straight.

Arbutus by the way is 40 blocks from UBC, this is not going to drive ridership.

The other infrastructure improvements are on the number one highway close to Revelstoke and the number 3 by the kicking horse pass. The provincial Liberals are spending a lot of money on highway improvements. The primary driver is safety.

In the lower mainland the drivers are air quality improvement and the ability to move goods.

You may hate the Liberals but really what is the point of being blind. The NDP government after all started the Rav process. We need rapid trasit, if you don’t believe me visit a place like LA and see the gridlock and air pollution. The population for the lower mainland is projected to almost double in the next 20 years. Would you suggest that we do nothing to prepare for this growth?

[caesar]

We can have a much cheaper line without tunnelling under Cambie street where costs could go out of control. This line is being put in now for the Olympics.

The cost of the alternative route is much cheaper.

Who wants to ride an undergound system where sabotage or bad air accidents are prone. We have a beautiful city. Tourists (WHICH IS WHAT WE WANT TO ATTRACT) want to ride on an above ground system like the present system and see the city not a continuous boring tunnel; very claustrophobic.

How many people who shop at oakridge would go by any kind of transit??? not too many.

Health care necessities that the whole province and its citizens need not some stupid sports extravaganza costing billions. If I hate Campbell; I do have good cause; starting with his embarassing drunk driving charge in Hawaii and never stopping. Now he wants to send our medical records to the USA for processing. Anywhere but BC eh

[maplesyrup]

The primary driver is safety.

Actually the primary driver is government contracts going to Liberal party friends. Why else would Campbell be there? Let's live in the real world, eh?

[maplesyrup]

Apparently there is nothing these American companies can do to prevent the FBI from perusing the medical records of Canadians. I can't wait until June 17 as this collecting Canadians medical records and shipping them to the US issue, is sure to come back and bite Campbell in the ass.

[caesar]

There is absolutely no excuse for him to ship our records and jobs to a foreign country.

If safety is so important to the Provincial government; why do skytrains not have "cow catchers" People who jump or fall on the tracks are ground into bits.

Why are there no attendents or turnstiles collecting fares; that leads to cheating and a hangout for the bums and a quick getaway for shoplifters. There should be a railing so people and children cannot accidently fall onto the tracks; one that comes down as the train comes in the station. Safety is certainly not the first issue. The yellow bumpy strip marking the edge of the platforms were not installed until a blind man fell on the tracks and survived but with extreme and expensive injuries that they will probably have to pay for.

[Guest eureka]

I assume that you are a rightist, to use your descriptives, Willy, and, therefore, understand investment in your own befuddled way. I take it that you also understand what investment in healthcare would do. I suggest that it would repay far more than investment in the Olympics or even in industry directly.

That being said, when you say that we have to slow down the spendeing (investment, I would suggest) on healthcare, I am sure you must have missed the information without which sound "investments" cannot be made.

That information is that in 1992, Canada spent 7.4% of GDP on healthcare: ten years later it spent only 6.7%

All the provinces are crying that their spending is going out of sight as a %ge of GDP. Yet, they are spending less in that proportion than they used to. The increasing ratio is entirely due to tax cuts and no other factor.

It might surprise you to learn that revenue losses to governments (all governments) over the same ten year span due to tax cuts only are in the order of $150 billion. Just imagine what could have been done with healthcare AND all the other programs that have been shortchanged had we not been seduced by all those right wingers who wanted that $150 billion for their personal investments.

[willy]

eureka,

Spending is the answer eh? So for a province the size of BC 14 Billion dollars this year is not enough. How much is enough. The percentage of GDP does not relate to the demand we can expect on our health system as the population ages.

I would like to see primary health reform. This includes teams of physicians working as gate keepers to the health system, with nurses playing a frontline roll to see patients with physicians checking in on the work. We need better electronic health records to minimize the need for tests. We need patients to take responsibility and not see a doctor for a common cold. We need a market model that encourages surgeries not global budgets.

You can take your fingers out of my pocket. All I want is a health system I can access when I need it. No lines and I don't want to go broke in the process. My tax dollars can go to better uses if used wisely like social housing, education, arts, sport for all, and maybe a little foreign aid.

Again BC cut 1.5 billion in income tax and increased user fees and sales tax. This is not a provincial tax issue. The feds cut the transfers 10 years ago. It would be nice if they increased the spending up to at least Romano’s 25% but that will still not provide more physicians (specialists and gps) or nurses.

Our model will not serve the demand. Look to the Alberta reforms and you will see a progressive move to meet our needs. Remember that health care in our current model treats sickness, an investment may look to avoid sickness. (i.e. fitness, environment, standard of living, education can all be tied to better health)

[caesar]

: willy;

I would like to see primary health reform. This includes teams of physicians working as gate keepers to the health system, with nurses playing a frontline roll to see patients with physicians checking in on the work. We need better electronic health records to minimize the need for tests. We need patients to take responsibility and not see a doctor for a common cold

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This is the first rational comment I have seen you make.

It does not require private health care. A similar model has been suggested with large clinic employing all the doctors, nurses, specialists and labs in one spot ( similar to an emergency room) In fact; they would be able to handle most emergencies. any non ambulance emergency. Ambulance personnel could take the patient to the approprate place; emergency or this all encompassing center. It would take a lot of stress off hospital emergency rooms.

However, doctors are resisting any salaried work.

I do realize this would only work in the cities but other centers could be built on a smaller mode that would assess the patient and transfer them to the appropriate center or hospital.

[August1991]

That information is that in 1992, Canada spent 7.4% of GDP on healthcare: ten years later it spent only 6.7%

Please provide a source for that data. Are you referring to State spending alone or both State and private spending?

[caesar]

We are Canadian. They are provinces not states. OK

[kimmy]

(pssst, I think he means "state" as in "government" )

-kimmy

:P

[caesar]

Still I say; provinces or federal government; not states. OK

[kimmy]

you're hopeless

As per caesar's request, Queen Elizabeth II shall no longer be refered to as Canada's Head of State. She shall heretofore be known as "Canada's Head of Provinces or Federal Government"

-kimmy