Another Double-Standard Story; Tears for Rachel Corrie,

[bud]

Anyways, at least we've gotten the basics out of the way. You're openly opposed to Jewish statehood, which you are unwilling to admit puts the Jewish people at risk of harm (including destruction) through genocide or assimilation.

heh.

yes blackdog and anyone else who shows any criticism of israel's actions and system; 'you are openly opposed to jewish statehood.'

you're a real piece of work, bob.

[Bob]

heh.

yes blackdog and anyone else who shows any criticism of israel's actions and system; 'you are openly opposed to jewish statehood.'

you're a real piece of work, bob.

If you actually read Black Dog's posts, you'll see that I am accurately characterizing his position. He is opposed to what he describes as the Israeli state being predicated on an ethno-religious identity. He was very honest about this opposition to Jewish statehood.

You're playing the same old trick of crying out that all criticisms of Israel are decried as "anti-Semitism", despite the fact that Black Dog's position is clearly in opposition to Jewish nationalism.

[Bob]

How about making part of the "real discussion" the economic activity and viability of a new state. Without such a discussion it sure seems that the purpose of a new state is a springboard for further aggression against Israel.

If you think about it for a moment, the economic viability of a hypothetical Palestinian state is irrelevant when discussing the legitimacy of such a hypothetical state. A Palestinian state does not need to be in the red, so to speak, in order to be legitimate. This connects to recent smokescreens we've seen in the media over the past few years, with the World Bank talking about the PA being fiscally prepared to be independent (which is a complete lie, but anyways...), the donor conference to acquire the hundreds of millions of dollars needed by the PA, to the UN's recent the UN's recent statement of confidence in the PA's ability to govern. All of these are irrelevant, as the legitimacy of the Palestinian people to independence isn't dependent on their future economic success or failure, or on the abilities of their leadership to govern.

Can we deny Palestinian independence because they have poor economic prospects? Can we deny them independence because of poor leadership and institutions? No. We can deny them independence if that independence threatens us, though. And that's exactly what most "two-state solutions" that are circulated around will do. Even more fundamentally, is there legitimacy to Palestinian national claims for statehood? Are they really distinguishable from neighbouring Arabs in any meaningful way? If not, from where do they derive legitimacy to their nationalist claims? If you're indistinguishable from others, why do they need a separate state? Palestinian nationalism is a recent political development rooted entirely in opposition to Israel as the Jewish state. It is entirely defined by what is opposes. There are already more than enough countries for Arabs and/or Muslims. We don't need another, and certainly not at Israel's expense.

[jbg]

If you actually read Black Dog's posts, you'll see that I am accurately characterizing his position. He is opposed to what he describes as the Israeli state being predicated on an ethno-religious identity. He was very honest about this opposition to Jewish statehood.

You're playing the same old trick of crying out that all criticisms of Israel are decried as "anti-Semitism", despite the fact that Black Dog's position is clearly in opposition to Jewish nationalism.

At least Black Dog is honest in admitting that the issue isn't "1967 borders"; it's Israel's existance as a Jewish State. That is an idea many find anathema.

[jbg]

Can we deny Palestinian independence because they have poor economic prospects? Can we deny them independence because of poor leadership and institutions? No.

I disagree, for reasons I state in this new thread I opened. I decided the answer I gave created thread drift. Further, I wanted the discussion on that thread not to focus on Israel or Islam. Edited May 1, 2011 by jbg

[Bob]

Listen my friend, this isn't really a matter of opinion. There is no question that the legitimacy of a nation's or group of people's claim to independence is NOT contingent on the prospects of the future state's financial liability. If your position made sense, then it would be true for all states in a retroactive manner. In other words, a state that went bankrupt would forfeit its sovereignty.

Look, I'm largely ambivalent about Palestinian claims to independence and statehood. I only view that issue with respect to how it affects Israel. I do not accept Palestinian on principle, as in my view we have more than enough states that are for Arabs and/or Muslims - there is no need for another, unless it serves Israel's interests. I reject the suggestion that Palestinians represent a distinct nation entitled to self-determination, unlike the Jewish people. They are indistinguishable from many in the neighbourhood, if you know what I mean. What I'm trying to get at is that there are legitimate arguments against Palestinian nationalism rooted in principle, and arguing that the Palestinians do not yet have a high likelihood of financial viability in the form of a hypothetical future state isn't one of them. Is the legitimacy of Jewish self-determination dependent on Israel's financial viability? Certainly not.

Lastly, on a practical level there is certainly a connection between a state's economic viability and its true sovereignty. If a state is dependent on hand-outs for 50% of its economy, as a hypothetical future Palestinian state certainly would be given its current conditions, how sovereign can it really be? One more thing - you seemed to make a comment expressing concern for America's purse, as if a Palestinian state would become another financial burden on the USA. The USA is already the largest single-state supporter of the Palestinians, giving them hundreds of millions of dollars per year for almost the past decade, giving smaller amounts before that for many years. The USA doesn't need to give this support, you seem to be suggesting otherwise. There have been recent developments, however, that Congress will make attempts to stop funding the Palestinians, especially after the recent unity deal between Fatah and Hamas.

I'd write more, but it's tedious on my mobile. Cheers.

[GostHacked]

Look, I'm largely ambivalent about Palestinian claims to independence and statehood. I only view that issue with respect to how it affects Israel. I do not accept Palestinian on principle, as in my view we have more than enough states that are for Arabs and/or Muslims - there is no need for another, unless it serves Israel's interests.

You are an awesome troll Bob.

[Bob]

Thanks for pointing that out, I meant to type that I reject Palestinian nationalism on principle. In short, I don't view them as a distinct people deserving independence in this world. I can assure you that arguing in favour of Palestinian nationalism is very difficult to do, as the only claim they have to being a distinct people from the neighbouring Arabs is rooted in modern history. They're Arabs, and we already have more than enough Arab states through which they can achieve self-determination, with the rest of their people. None of this has stopped much of the ignorant mainstream from recognizing the superficiality of Palestinian nationalism, as Palestinian claims to independence has been accepted wholesale, at least in part, by so many. Like I said, I view this issue from one perspective only - how will it affect Israel and Jewish national rights? There is no way I would ever support moves to advance Palestinian agendas at the expense of Jewish national rights.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Bob

[GostHacked]

Thanks for pointing that out, I meant to type that I reject Palestinian nationalism on principle. In short, I don't view them as a distinct people deserving independence in this world. I can assure you that arguing in favour of Palestinian nationalism is very difficult to do, as the only claim they have to being a distinct people from the neighbouring Arabs is rooted in modern history. They're Arabs, and we already have more than enough Arab states through which they can achieve self-determination, with the rest of their people. None of this has stopped much of the ignorant mainstream from recognizing the superficiality of Palestinian nationalism, as Palestinian claims to independence has been accepted wholesale, at least in part, by so many. Like I said, I view this issue from one perspective only - how will it affect Israel and Jewish national rights? There is no way I would ever support moves to advance Palestinian agendas at the expense of Jewish national rights.

But you don't mind it if it is the other way around. You are failing Bob, and showing your true colours.

[Bob]

Gosthacked, feel free to "turn it the other way around". It very easy to explain the distinction of the Jewish people and how we are entitled to independence because of those things that distinguish us. The Palestinians, on the other hand, are largely indistinguishable from surrounding Arab populations. Considering that actually constituting a unique identity is a large component of an legitimate claim to nationalism and associated independence, this is quite important.

As far as me showinh my colours, I've never been anything than 100% clear and honest in my opinions in these forums, with only rare outbursts of hyperbole. In short, the component of having a distinct identity that justifies independence exists for Jewish national claims... it is a much weaker component of Palestinian national claims, considering that they are largely indistinguishable for neighbouring Arab states. In other words, we have many Arab states already (22, I think?), we don't need another - unless it advances Israel's interests.

[GostHacked]

Gosthacked, feel free to "turn it the other way around". It very easy to explain the distinction of the Jewish people and how we are entitled to independence because of those things that distinguish us. The Palestinians, on the other hand, are largely indistinguishable from surrounding Arab populations. Considering that actually constituting a unique identity is a large component of an legitimate claim to nationalism and associated independence, this is quite important.

You are entitled to your independance, and so are the Palestinians.

As far as me showinh my colours, I've never been anything than 100% clear and honest in my opinions in these forums, with only rare outbursts of hyperbole. In short, the component of having a distinct identity that justifies independence exists for Jewish national claims... it is a much weaker component of Palestinian national claims, considering that they are largely indistinguishable for neighbouring Arab states. In other words, we have many Arab states already (22, I think?), we don't need another - unless it advances Israel's interests.

Well, you support kicking out the Palestinians simply because they can go else where, because the are Arabs. And true you've been 100% clear you support genocide of the Palestinians, all because of this 'historic' link to the land Israel now sits on.

You got your country, what more do you really want? Peace? Stop being an occupier, and get out of the illegal settlements.

But if Israel is going to kick em all out, do it soon. Then we can all move on. Or are you afriad if that happens, Israel will experience a good deal of flack from the surrounding Arabic countries who have no distinction between each other.

Take take take and don't give an inch Bob, that would be ... the human thing to do. Don't give back because 'NEVER AGAIN!!!!' ..... sounds like a bunch of cry baby whiners to me. Israel is all grown up now, so it should stop acting like the little kid who likes to play the victim holocaust card and call anyone an anti-semite who does not agree with anything Israel does. These are the reasons I won't recognize Israel as what you claim it to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast I guess this was not good enough (Established 1934) And this goes to my other point of, if there was any other place the jews to go, would they go. I keep getting the answer of NOPE.

[Black Dog]

Anyways, at least we've gotten the basics out of the way. You're openly opposed to Jewish statehood, which you are unwilling to admit puts the Jewish people at risk of harm (including destruction) through genocide or assimilation. Why should we continue talking about anything else? You're opposed to the very foundation and fabric of Israel. There's no need for us to discuss smaller issues (for instance, the Law of Return) when you are opposed to the core values held by the majority of Jewish people.

i reject the notion that an Israeli state that ensures complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex and guarantees freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in fact as it does today in law would cease to be a Jewish state. As though eliminating the privileged status of the Jewish population would negate the history and cultural hallmarks of the state. As little faith as you have in the rest of the world, you have even less in the Jewish people that you assume such weakness.

[Bob]

i reject the notion that an Israeli state that ensures complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex and guarantees freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in fact as it does today in law would cease to be a Jewish state. As though eliminating the privileged status of the Jewish population would negate the history and cultural hallmarks of the state. As little faith as you have in the rest of the world, you have even less in the Jewish people that you assume such weakness.

You're suggesting that non-Jews are discriminated against in Israel, which isn't the case. What I've stated before, clearly, was that if these realities begin to threaten Jewish national rights (which they have been for some time, now), movement need to be made to address these threats. Israel's perserverance as a Jewish state depends primarily on a large Jewish majority. This of course begs the question - how much is too little and how much is enough? The sad truth is that every non-Jewish vote is a piece taken away from Jewish self-determination. As votes are the method through which we collectively define our destiny, every non-Jewish vote dilutes our self-determination. As far as faith in what you earlier described as "the other", history has given us more than ample illustrations that the world can never be trusted with protecting us. More than enough times the world has conspired to harm us, destroy us, or at best look the other way. People like you seem to have a problem with assertive Jewish nationalism that demands and seizes its own independence and self-determination, get over it. Like I said, Israel will not allow processes and methods to destroy our national rights, despite ignorant assumptions from disconnected Goys like you thousands of kilometres away.

[Bob]

i reject the notion that an Israeli state that ensures complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex and guarantees freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in fact as it does today in law would cease to be a Jewish state. As though eliminating the privileged status of the Jewish population would negate the history and cultural hallmarks of the state. As little faith as you have in the rest of the world, you have even less in the Jewish people that you assume such weakness.

You're suggesting that non-Jews are discriminated against in Israel, which isn't the case. What I've stated before, clearly, was that if these realities begin to threaten Jewish national rights (which they have been for some time, now), movement need to be made to address these threats. Israel's perserverance as a Jewish state depends primarily on a large Jewish majority. This of course begs the question - how much is too little and how much is enough? The sad truth is that every non-Jewish vote is a piece taken away from Jewish self-determination. As votes are the method through which we collectively define our destiny, every non-Jewish vote dilutes our self-determination. As far as faith in what you earlier described as "the other", history has given us more than ample illustrations that the world can never be trusted with protecting us. More than enough times the world has conspired to harm us, destroy us, or at best look the other way. People like you seem to have a problem with assertive Jewish nationalism that demands and seizes its own independence and self-determination, get over it. Like I said, Israel will not allow processes and methods to destroy our national rights, despite ignorant assumptions from disconnected Goys like you thousands of kilometres away.

[Black Dog]

You're suggesting that non-Jews are discriminated against in Israel, which isn't the case.

It is. It's well documented and routine. I shouldn't have to tell you this.

What I've stated before, clearly, was that if these realities begin to threaten Jewish national rights (which they have been for some time, now), movement need to be made to address these threats.

What are these threats? Be specific.

Israel's perserverance as a Jewish state depends primarily on a large Jewish majority.

That's an assumption on your part. Who are these that would, realistically be capable of erasing Israel's national character?

This of course begs the question - how much is too little and how much is enough?

The sad truth is that every non-Jewish vote is a piece taken away from Jewish self-determination. As votes are the method through which we collectively define our destiny, every non-Jewish vote dilutes our self-determination.

Then why not simply dispense with the democratic window dressing and make your country Arab or Christian-free. Forced expulsion of all non-Jews is the logical conclusion here.

As far as faith in what you earlier described as "the other", history has given us more than ample illustrations that the world can never be trusted with protecting us. More than enough times the world has conspired to harm us, destroy us, or at best look the other way.

I'm talking of your lack of faith in your fellow Jews that you think only by building a wall between yourselves and the rest of the world will you be safe (this, despite the great successes enjoyed by the Jewish diaspora in other democracies).

People like you seem to have a problem with assertive Jewish nationalism that demands and seizes its own independence and self-determination, get over it.

I have no problem with independence and self-determination so long as it does not trample the fundamental concepts of democratic liberalism and basic humanity.

Like I said, Israel will not allow processes and methods to destroy our national rights, despite ignorant assumptions from disconnected Goys like you thousands of kilometres away.

What are the processes and methods that would threaten Israel's national rights?

[jbg]

Listen my friend, this isn't really a matter of opinion. There is no question that the legitimacy of a nation's or group of people's claim to independence is NOT contingent on the prospects of the future state's financial liability. If your position made sense, then it would be true for all states in a retroactive manner. In other words, a state that went bankrupt would forfeit its sovereignty.

*******************************

Lastly, on a practical level there is certainly a connection between a state's economic viability and its true sovereignty. If a state is dependent on hand-outs for 50% of its economy, as a hypothetical future Palestinian state certainly would be given its current conditions, how sovereign can it really be?

By and large you seem to agree with me.

One more thing - you seemed to make a comment expressing concern for America's purse, as if a Palestinian state would become another financial burden on the USA. The USA is already the largest single-state supporter of the Palestinians, giving them hundreds of millions of dollars per year for almost the past decade, giving smaller amounts before that for many years. The USA doesn't need to give this support, you seem to be suggesting otherwise. There have been recent developments, however, that Congress will make attempts to stop funding the Palestinians, especially after the recent unity deal between Fatah and Hamas.

My implication is that inertia and political correctness make it unlikely, but not impossible, that the U.S. will materially alter its support of "Palestine" or Egypt, despite obvious reasons to do so.

[Bob]

It is. It's well documented and routine. I shouldn't have to tell you this.

No, it isn't.

What are these threats? Be specific.

For example, in the hypothetical future scenario where the Arab proportion of Israeli citizenry begins to grow. That would be a direct threat to Jewish national rights. It already is, as about twenty percent of our citizenry is Arab, who by an large reject Jewish national rights, oppose Zionism, and sympathize with our enemies. Arabs are, unquestionably, a fifth column in this country. It's sad but it's true.

That's an assumption on your part. Who are these that would, realistically be capable of erasing Israel's national character?

This has got to be one of the most monumentally stupid things I've seen in awhile. If you don't understand how a Jewish state depends on a Jewish population, well.... Israel's character is defined by those who live in Israel. If the Jewish population is diminished, then the Jewish national character of Israel is also diminished, and Zionism is slowly destroyed. Don't ever think that'll happen, contrary to your wishes.

I'm talking of your lack of faith in your fellow Jews that you think only by building a wall between yourselves and the rest of the world will you be safe (this, despite the great successes enjoyed by the Jewish diaspora in other democracies).

There's no "wall between (us) and the rest of the world". It is a wall that separates us from Palestinian territories. Please cease the hysterics and hyperbole. The Jewish diaspora's success is a recent phenomenon in free countries. And there's much more to Jewish life than materialistic achievement. You're trying to make the stealth argument that the Jewish people don't need the land of Israel. Well, that's our decision to make and we've made it. Without a land to call our own, we're at the mercy of majority host populations. Without a state a government to form an army, we're vulnerable. We know the world will never lift a finger to help us when we're in trouble, so we have Israel. Beyond that, there is the historical, cultural, and religious connection to our homeland. Divided we're weak, and united we're strong. I guess you have a problem with that.

I have no problem with independence and self-determination so long as it does not trample the fundamental concepts of democratic liberalism and basic humanity.

Right. Which is why you make so many posts about 85% of the world's governments. You gotta love how you accuse Zionism as such a human rights offender!

What are the processes and methods that would threaten Israel's national rights?

Like I said, when forced to make a choice between one value or process and Jewish national perseverance, Jewish national rights override secondary considerations. The hypothetical example I mentioned above was where the Arab proportion of Israeli citizenry grows. Do you think we will allow Jewish national rights to be destroyed by an Arab majority in the name of democracy? Of course not. Jewish nationhood trumps all other consideration if they come into direct conflict with one an other. Jewish independence and self-determination is the highest moral imperative. It's sometimes a difficult balancing act, but don't think for a second that we will allow ourselves to be destroyed in the name of some secondary moral value.

[Black Dog]

No, it isn't.

If you say so.

For example, in the hypothetical future scenario where the Arab proportion of Israeli citizenry begins to grow. That would be a direct threat to Jewish national rights. It already is, as about twenty percent of our citizenry is Arab, who by an large reject Jewish national rights, oppose Zionism, and sympathize with our enemies. Arabs are, unquestionably, a fifth column in this country. It's sad but it's true.

Proof? Cite?

This has got to be one of the most monumentally stupid things I've seen in awhile. If you don't understand how a Jewish state depends on a Jewish population, well.... Israel's character is defined by those who live in Israel. If the Jewish population is diminished, then the Jewish national character of Israel is also diminished, and Zionism is slowly destroyed. Don't ever think that'll happen, contrary to your wishes.

National character is about far more then demographics, Mr. Steyn.

There's no "wall between (us) and the rest of the world". It is a wall that separates us from Palestinian territories. Please cease the hysterics and hyperbole. The Jewish diaspora's success is a recent phenomenon in free countries. And there's much more to Jewish life than materialistic achievement. You're trying to make the stealth argument that the Jewish people don't need the land of Israel. Well, that's our decision to make and we've made it. Without a land to call our own, we're at the mercy of majority host populations. Without a state a government to form an army, we're vulnerable. We know the world will never lift a finger to help us when we're in trouble, so we have Israel. Beyond that, there is the historical, cultural, and religious connection to our homeland. Divided we're weak, and united we're strong. I guess you have a problem with that.

I'm not, but your strawman arguments are truly breathtaking to behold.

Right. Which is why you make so many posts about 85% of the world's governments. You gotta love how you accuse Zionism as such a human rights offender!

How can a political ideology be a human rights offender? You're losing the plot. Right on schedule.

Like I said, when forced to make a choice between one value or process and Jewish national perseverance, Jewish national rights override secondary considerations. The hypothetical example I mentioned above was where the Arab proportion of Israeli citizenry grows. Do you think we will allow Jewish national rights to be destroyed by an Arab majority in the name of democracy? Of course not. Jewish nationhood trumps all other consideration if they come into direct conflict with one an other. Jewish independence and self-determination is the highest moral imperative. It's sometimes a difficult balancing act, but don't think for a second that we will allow ourselves to be destroyed in the name of some secondary moral value.

You're a broken record of base tribalism. However noble you believe your cause to be, the simple fact is that your chauvinism ensures Israel will remain in conflict and a nation divided in perpetuity. Because of people like you, your children's children will be fighting the exact same battles. It's quite sad, really.

[jbg]

You're a broken record of base tribalism. However noble you believe your cause to be, the simple fact is that your chauvinism ensures Israel will remain in conflict and a nation divided in perpetuity. Because of people like you, your children's children will be fighting the exact same battles. It's quite sad, really.

Why is Israeli or Jewish self-preservation "base tribalism", but the endless internecine slaughters, much less the massacres of Jews by Muslims not also "base tribalism"?

Please do explain.

And while you're at it explain why so many so-called "progressives" support Muslims that are anti-gay and anti-woman?

[Bob]

What's the point of arguing with a guy that advances the myth that Arabs are discriminated against in Israel (which is pretty much telling us that the Jewish population of Israel is racist)? I mean, this guy's actually challenging the reality that Arabs in Israel are, by and large, anti-Zionist. There's no better illustration of how little you know about this country than that. For starters, take a look at the Arab parties in Israel and see what positions they advocate and with whom they express solidarity. Take a look at Arab voting trends. Read Arab media. Watch Arab commentators on television or on the internet. Investigate Arab organization and "civil rights groups". Have a conversation with an Arab, at a minimum! Widespread opposition to Zionism should be elementary when entering into a dialogue about Arab perceptions of this issue. It's no different among Arabs in Israel and in the territories.

The truth is, Black Dog, I don't expect more from you. You're not Jewish, so obviously you don't care about us or our needs. It doesn't matter to you whether we survive as a group, are given or national rights to define our own destiny or have the land and state necessary for the actualization of our rights. It's the same Goy mentality that was ambivalent about us being exterminated in the Holocaust. People like you are why the Jewish national needs will always need to be defended. You view this conflict as the result of us refusing to be subjugated and/or annihilated, even if through more docile methods as assimilation. It's our fault for simply not rolling over and allowing others to destroy us.

[GostHacked]

What's the point of arguing with a guy that advances the myth that Arabs are discriminated against in Israel (which is pretty much telling us that the Jewish population of Israel is racist)? I mean, this guy's actually challenging the reality that Arabs in Israel are, by and large, anti-Zionist. There's no better illustration of how little you know about this country than that. For starters, take a look at the Arab parties in Israel and see what positions they advocate and with whom they express solidarity. Take a look at Arab voting trends. Read Arab media. Watch Arab commentators on television or on the internet. Investigate Arab organization and "civil rights groups". Have a conversation with an Arab, at a minimum! Widespread opposition to Zionism should be elementary when entering into a dialogue about Arab perceptions of this issue. It's no different among Arabs in Israel and in the territories.

Some Arabs are definately discriminatory towards Jews. Just as some Jews are discriminatory agains Arabs .... But you only want to see the one side of it.

The truth is, Black Dog, I don't expect more from you. You're not Jewish, so obviously you don't care about us or our needs. It doesn't matter to you whether we survive as a group, are given or national rights to define our own destiny or have the land and state necessary for the actualization of our rights.

So not being Jewish means that we have no way to understand the plight of the Jewish people? Laughable.

It's the same Goy mentality that was ambivalent about us being exterminated in the Holocaust. People like you are why the Jewish national needs will always need to be defended. You view this conflict as the result of us refusing to be subjugated and/or annihilated, even if through more docile methods as assimilation. It's our fault for simply not rolling over and allowing others to destroy us.

But it is your fault for rolling over others crying 'HOLOCAUST NEVAH FORGET!!!' as justification to roll over those others.

[Bob]

Some Arabs are definately discriminatory towards Jews. Just as some Jews are discriminatory agains Arabs .... But you only want to see the one side of it.

You're right, there is a trend of anti-Arab sentiment among many Jews. Very often this includes unjustifiable prejudices. Generally speaking, though, our prejudices just aren't as vehement or widespread as theirs. You need to ask yourself honestly, do you think if we could measure prejudice among both Jews and Arabs that the degree of this prejudice would be equal? Only if you go in with the false supposition that are people are equal in all things.

You'll find a greater support for violence among Arabs. You'll find a greater support for religious rule/domination among Arabs. You'll find less respect for values of democracy, pluralism, and liberty among Arabs. You'll find lower levels of education among Arabs. I could go on and on, but I can't make you realize these things without you seeing it for yourself. The truth is that anyone who really identifies with Western values will invariably feel more comfortable among Jews than Arabs (generally speaking) in Israel. And there are reasons for this.

So not being Jewish means that we have no way to understand the plight of the Jewish people? Laughable.

Generally speaking, yes. Non-Jews can understand us, but do they? Usually not. I don't blame them, it's a complicated story and they've got better things to do than walk a mile in Jewish shoes.

But it is your fault for rolling over others crying 'HOLOCAUST NEVAH FORGET!!!' as justification to roll over those others.

Are you attacking Holocaust remembrance or trivializing the effect it's had on the Jewish collective psyche? Let me break it to you, with or without the Holocaust Israel belongs to the Jewish people. Our national rights weren't borne in the ashes of six million. Yes, the Holocaust had a significant effect on the politics surrounding the reestablishment of Israel, but it's wrong to think that the Jewish people needs to undergo a catastrophe in order to justify our rights to independence and self-determination.

[GostHacked]

You're right, there is a trend of anti-Arab sentiment among many Jews. Very often this includes unjustifiable prejudices. Generally speaking, though, our prejudices just aren't as vehement or widespread as theirs. You need to ask yourself honestly, do you think if we could measure prejudice among both Jews and Arabs that the degree of this prejudice would be equal? Only if you go in with the false supposition that are people are equal in all things.

So you don't support equality for all? Sounds racist.

You'll find a greater support for violence among Arabs. You'll find a greater support for religious rule/domination among Arabs. You'll find less respect for values of democracy, pluralism, and liberty among Arabs. You'll find lower levels of education among Arabs. I could go on and on, but I can't make you realize these things without you seeing it for yourself. The truth is that anyone who really identifies with Western values will invariably feel more comfortable among Jews than Arabs (generally speaking) in Israel. And there are reasons for this.

Actually if you are looking around the globe recently, you will see that many Arabic countries are violently protesting their islamic governments and kicking them out. Why? They want something better than what they have.

Muslim on Muslim violence far outeights Muslim on Jew violence. You'd be the kind of person that would welcome Muslim on Mulims violence because if they are attacking each other, then they are not attacking the Jews. The Sunni's and the Shiite's have been in a long battle with each other, probably as long or longer than their beef with the Jews.

Egypt, Syria, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia ... and others.

Generally speaking, yes. Non-Jews can understand us, but do they? Usually not. I don't blame them, it's a complicated story and they've got better things to do than walk a mile in Jewish shoes.

If you are not making your point clear, change your rhetoric.

Are you attacking Holocaust remembrance or trivializing the effect it's had on the Jewish collective psyche? Let me break it to you, with or without the Holocaust Israel belongs to the Jewish people. Our national rights weren't borne in the ashes of six million. Yes, the Holocaust had a significant effect on the politics surrounding the reestablishment of Israel, but it's wrong to think that the Jewish people needs to undergo a catastrophe in order to justify our rights to independence and self-determination.

So why do Jews play that Holocaust card so often then? Everytime Israel is attacked in speach the Holocaust card gets thrown down on the table. If it was not the main reason Israel was established why is it used so often AS the main reason? And then when people disagree with the use of it (like I disagree with it) why do we get called anti-semite?

You are not doing a good job of convincing me here.

Edited May 12, 2011 by GostHacked

[Black Dog]

Why is Israeli or Jewish self-preservation "base tribalism", but the endless internecine slaughters, much less the massacres of Jews by Muslims not also "base tribalism"?

Who says they aren't?

[Bob]

You really try my patience, GostHacked. Do you really not understand what I'm saying or are you deliberately being obtuse? I always regret replying to you because I always get the stupidest responses, but here goes...

I'll address one thing, which is your assumption that recent Arab uprisings are a rejection of Islamism. First of all, Arabic dictatorships come in various flavours. Saudi Arabia is the best example we have of an organized Islamist government. Egypt, on the other hand, represent a much more secular version of Arabic dictatorship - although by Western standards it was still very religious, both on paper and in the hearts and minds of its people. This variation of Arab dictatorship disqualifies your simplistic assertion that the Arab masses are uniformly rising up against religious governance. It simply doesn't compute. Most importantly, where are these uprisings taking place? In the more secular dictatorships: Egypt, Syria, some action in Jordan, Yemen, and Bahrain (I know virtually nothing about Bahrain and Yemen, by the way, so if they're more religious someone please let me know).

I am humble enough to stat that I don't know what's motivating these Arab uprisings. I know, at a minimum, that many people are dissatisfied with the status quo. Does that mean that they're necessarily interested in democracy? Maybe. If so, what kind of democracy? What kind of differing approaches do we see between various protest movements? Surely not all rioters/demonstrators in Egypt are demanding the same thing. On what issues do we see fragmentation? I don't have the answers to these questions. You certainly don't have them, either (because you don't read about these issues). I am certainly not going to jump on the bandwagon from the mainstream media and refer to these "rebels" as "pro-democracy". Are they really? Maybe. I doubt it. Arabs don't have that cultural predisposition, generally speaking. Democracy isn't a natural order of things, either, as ignorant idealists like to pretend. It needs to be learned and accepted among large parts of a society over time. Has that time arrived for the Arabs, or at least some of them? Maybe. I'll hold my breath and reserve judgement until I learn more.

And don't ask me to support argument I never advanced. The legitimacy of Israel's perseverance as the Jewish state doesn't hinge on the Holocaust, although the Holocaust is certainly a hugely significant important part of modern Jewish history and is tied directly to the events surrounding Israel's reestablishment.